AA or CR123

I just signed up on this forum so I could ask a question. I'm in the market for a performance flashlight. Should the type of batteries used be a consideration? I use Ni-MH AA's in my digital point and shoot camera and have a LaCross BC-900 charger for them. The AA's would be convenient and not involve additional expense. I just don't know if they impose a significant restriction when compared to a light that uses CR-123's.

Examples of the lights I am looking at are:

Fenix TK20 and Fenix PD30

Any comments on these would be appreciated.

John

Hi alamogunr,

Welcome to CPF! I hope you didn't join just for this one question... you should stick around awhile and check this place out... before long your wallet will have been nicely drained ehhe...

As for your flashlight choice..
AA NIMH cells are GREAT for many flashlight options out there. If you already have a good NIMH charger (you do) and some good NIMH cells (unsure what you are using but low-self-discharge cells are generally the best for a wide range of applications) then there is no reason you shouldn't consider a good AA powered light to go along with that setup you already have on hand. CR123 powered lights have some advantages and disadvantages.

The Fenix TK20, L1D Q5, LD10, L2D, L2T 2.0, E2O, all great options.

Olight and Jetbeam also have some nice offerings in the AA format. There are many more out there, hopefully some more people will come along with more suggestions to look at..

I'd say, Pick based on user interface options. Try not to concern yourself too much with lumens as pretty much all of these modern LED AA powered lights are probably going to make you wet your pants the first time you turn it on and compare it to a typical old flashlight.

Eric

exactly what mdocod said
and welcome! you'll find us a very fun family, no question is too stupid as long as it's posted in the correct forum

when I got my first LED light, it was a WF-606a. made me amazed..
now.. it's one of my "lesser" lights hehe...

I want to get EagleTac 2AA model, it's the highest rated 2xAA lite at 180 actual lumens.
I would use NiMh cells in it, with Lithiums as backup.

My EDC is Malkoff M60, I run 18500 cells in it, with 123 cells as backup.

To get high-performance anything, you have to use Lithium cells. AA and 123 lithiums cost about the same. I've found some bargains on quality brands at roughly $1/each.

If you use you lites a lot, annually you will spend many times the cost of the lite in cells. That's why the question is really NiMH AA vs. some kind of Li-Ion cell like 18500 or 18650. RCR123A have very low capacity.

I get "OK" runtime with 18500 and Malkoff M60 but the protected cells cut off suddenly. I EDC a few sets of spare 123 cells just for this situation.

A M60 is brighter than any AA lite you can find, however it lacks multiple modes, so you better bring spares.

alamogunr said:

I I'm in the market for a performance flashlight. Should the type of batteries used be a consideration? I use Ni-MH AA's in my digital point and shoot camera and have a LaCross BC-900 charger for them.
John

Click to expand...

It's certainly a consideration. If you plan to use the lights regularly, CR123's are costly. Lithium rechargeable batteries are available, but comparatively exotic. If you use them in multi-battery setups, be sure and monitor their condition carefully. There is a hazard related to voltage reversal and even ka-pow effects.

Lithium primaries (CR123) can be purchased for as low as $1, but current wisdom is to stick with the Japanese or US made batteries, at more like $2 each. They offer good power-weight, but if you plan to use them regularly, consider the expense. Based on total power delivered, a CR123 primary has a marginal advantage (30-40%?) over a NiMH AA, and the higher voltage means the circuit needed can be simplified.

My first real performance flashlight was a Surefire 9P (3xCR123). With a Cree based P60 LED drop in, it is still a nice performer. It can go through $5 worth of batteries in a few of hours, though.

IMHO, we've reached a point where the AA format with low discharge NiMH will deliver great performance in a light that has the necessary buck/boost circuits.

I began using the AA NiMH batteries for digital cameras, as well.

I now have a MH-C9000 charger, and a pile of the Sanyo Eneloop batteries. My favorite lights are now the Fenix L2D (2xAA), the Fenix LD01 (1xAAA), and a JetBeam Jet-1 Pro (1xAA).

My JetBeam has a beam quite similar in throw and brightness to the Surefire 9P, at less than half the weight and volume.

I probably use the LD01 the most. It gets regular daily use. Swapping to freshly charged Eneloops about once a week is cheap and easy, and with a good charger (BC-900 is fine) you have zero recurring cost in power, and can get years of use from each battery.

Many discussions favoring CR123 based lights seem to reach a point of saying that if your life depends on the light, you don't weight the cost of the battery much; or using the legendary reliability of the Surefire lights as a prime consideration. The best of the CR123 lights can outperform in ways - the battery is compact, and it gives you 3V without any circuitry at all.

With AA based lights, the efficiency of the power circuit (which by necessity sinks some power) and how well it can regulate is a factor. OTOH, you have the advantage of multiple light levels, etc. when you do have such a circuit in your light. Switching low voltage, and even the contact resistance at the battery terminals is a consideration for a flashlight that can use hundreds of milliAmps at 1-3 Volts. Any Voltage drop due to resistance or circuit inefficiency causes lower or reduced output that is easily seen or measured.

The bottom line for me is yes, the batteries are a huge factor. Think about how you'll use the light, and make that a factor in choice.

"To get high-performance anything, you have to use Lithium cells."

This is no longer true - many lights are available these days that give nearly identical performance on Li 14500 or AA cells. Also, many lights are available today that can interchange Ni or Li batteries with equivalent performance, the total energy (watt-hours) in a good Ni AA is nearly identical to that of and Li cell, and the amperage that it can deliver is equivalent to the Li.

Take a look at the Nitecore lights - the D10 is a beauty. www4sevens.com offers a nice selection of AA lights.

There is no question about it, a 1xCR123 light is far superior to a 1xAA light in output, regulation, and compactness. That's not to say that the modern 1xAA lights are poor performers, especially in comparison to a traditional incandescent flashlight. In the current generation of high performance lights, you can generally forget about alkaline batteries. Yes, they will light up, but the regulation and output suffer. I would highly suggest sticking with NiMH if you go the AA route. Performance wise, 2xAA vs 1xCR123 is a more even match. Size is obviously in favor of the single cell CR123, but you get to use safe rechargeable NiMH AAs with the 2xAA light and you get better runtime. It all depends on how important size and cheap long runtimes are to you. Personally, I am not a big fan of Li-ion rechargeable batteries. There are safety issues (especially with multi-cell usage) and there is always the issue of protected vs unprotected cells. Hope this helps!

There is no question about it, a 1xCR123 light is far superior to a 1xAA light in output, regulation, and compactness.

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That is, until you actually look at lights announced in the past year or so: the Nitecore D10/EX10 are great examples. Both lights have identical specs when running on Li, and the D10 also does the same performance on AA as on Li.

Sorry guys, but there is little or no advantage to using Li over Ni these days, as the electronics have improved to the point where the higher voltage of Li makes little difference on modern lights.

But, hey, try it out - get a light that uses either type interchangeably, and make your own decision...

With your stock of NiMHs and that nice BC-900 charger, it would be crazy not to have a good light that takes AAs. You may eventually decide to get a light that runs on CR123s as well for more performance. But even then I seriously doubt you'd stop using your AA based lights. So go ahead and get a 2xAA light. Take a look through this excellent review that compares the best choices available and pick one that fits your needs the best. I can't say enough good things about the TK20 if you decide to go that route. It's become one of my favorite lights :thumbsup:

Re: 123 vs. AA, yes 2AA can do the job but the runtime suffers. L91s are best runtime wise.

With hungry 123 lites, it's critical to have backups cells.

My Malkoff M60 2x18500 gets a solid 2 hours runtime but it runs out quicker than you think and in an instant, like the old MagLite LED 3W. Blink and you are in the darkness. Such is not the case with 123 which have the longest tail I've ever seen (2 hours of regulated and then probably 2-3 hours of dim lite (maybe less))

So I EDC a spare set of 18500 Li-Ion, fully charged at 4.2V and also 2 sets of 123s, which things get really bad. Should get better runtime with 123s.

All in all, I should have 6+ solid hours of runtime here, which should compensate for the single mode of the lite, it's only downside but I understand it's a KISS attempt.

The LightHound tube doesn't work really well for me. It's too big, the cells rattle inside and I need 1 box to carry 3 spare sets.

This case on the left is from a set of headphones. It works really well for 2 sets of 123s.

Overall, the AA format is MUCH more versitile and offers the same performance. In AA size there are Li-Ion cells, LiFePO4, NiMH, Lithium primary, alkaline, NiCad, or even carbon zinc "super heavy duty". With CR123 you are stuck with expensive lithium primary or Li-Ion only.

brucec said:

There is no question about it, a 1xCR123 light is far superior to a 1xAA light in output, regulation, and compactness.

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Question...

Can you show me a CR123 light as compact as the NiMH 1xAAA based Fenix LD01? I think not.

I can show you a 1XAA light that will give a beam equivalent to a Surefire 9P (modded with a Cree LED P60 to be fair, the incandescent is not even close). The 1xAA lights are much more compact than a 2xCR123 much less a 3xCR123. Comparisons of 1xCR123 and 1xAA lights find the comparative outputs pretty close.

The latest crop of 1xAA LED lights running NiMH batteries are compact, deliver terrific output, and have efficient regulation with adjustable brightness at little cost in efficiency. They are much cheaper to run that the lithium primary cell batteries, as you admit.

Many, if not most, of the CR123 lights are not even regulated. The discharge curve will not be flat if they aren't.

This superiority you claim is quite questionable. If it exists, it is not "far" at all.

To the original poster, there is a vocal group on these boards who have a dogged determination that anything but CR123 based lights are inferior, but this isn't true today. It was true when the Surefire was the only really bright light you could buy, and they made Maglights look pitiful, admittedly. As technology has advanced, the differences have become slight.

Marduke said:

Overall, the AA format is MUCH more versitile and offers the same performance. In AA size there are Li-Ion cells, LiFePO4, NiMH, Lithium primary, alkaline, NiCad, or even carbon zinc "super heavy duty". With CR123 you are stuck with expensive lithium primary or Li-Ion only.

Click to expand...

I agree. If I could have only one lite, it would be 2xAA based.

Fenix L2D will run these awful junk cells "Super heavy duty".... on lowest modes.

I ended up EDCing Malkoff M60 with Li-Ion, since I recharge them anyway, just like I would NiMH. But NiMh dims slowly while Li-Ion suddenly cuts out, being protected.
The upside is that no 2xAA can match M60 in terms of lumens.

Comparing 123 vs. AA, fair to compare only lithiums.

AA lithium is real nice.

The only advantage of 123 is that it's 3V and you can get 9V in surefire 9P.

I wish SF made a AA-based lite with similar performance, I would get it.

etc said:

Comparing 123 vs. AA, fair to compare only lithiums.

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Okay. In that case, a single L91 primary has more stored energy than a single CR123 primary, a L91 can be used universally in almost any electronic device which takes AA cells (try finding a CR123 powered radio, digital camera, fan, etc), and a L91 has a shelf life twice as long as a CR123.

In terms of 16340 vs 14500, a 14500 will give a slightly longer runtime in a light designed for the chemistry.

.....

That hits the nail on the head. 123s are obsolete.

I have both 123 and L91 for redundancy purposes.

I need to find a kick-butt 2xAA lite, and after browsing the reviews, looks like EagleTac is the highest rated lite, plus I really like the dual mode. Highest for NiMH and L91 and low for Alks and maybe even Carbon Zinc stuff of which I got loads of. If the quality is not too bad.

I like the Malkoff M60 and it's the only 123 lite I have but the single mode can be difficult sometimes as well as inability to use non-exotic cells.

The only reason I got into 123s is because of Surefire. I like its' quality but I don't care for 123 per se.

I got tired of generic asian imports, they all look the same probably because they are the same. After I had 2 different Fenix lites fail on me (driver-wise), I wouldn't trust my life to it.. but with SF, I would.

Keep in mind, outside of CPF, 123s, and CR2, 18500s are almost unheard of and the general populace considers them weird and expensive. So never rely on them. I have my stock of cells for the next 10 years that I will ever need.

I had this dilemma with my first Fenix, but ended up going with the P2D due to the 60 lumen difference from the L1D. I listened to the arguments that they're hard to find and expensive, but I've found they cost about the same as AA lithium primaries, and they're not hard to find. They're expensive if you run out and have to resort to buying them from a camera shop or something, but how hard is it to buy online, keep a stock of them and carry spares?

I now prefer eneloop type AA's for EDC lights because of cost and low self-discharge rates, but I'm still happy using CR123's if I happen to prefer a light that uses them to it's AA counterpart. I've just bought a TK10, and as far as I'm concerned, if I'm ever stuck in the middle of nowhere in the dark with no spare batteries, and all I can find are AA's... I'm an idiot! :shrug:

If you get a good light, using your rechargeables won't give you any restrictions. By a good light, I mean a high powered, multilevel Cree flashlight that works with different battery chemistries. In my opinion, you should try a Fenix L2D Q5 or L1D Q5. By getting one of these lights, you can use rechargeable NiMH batteries, lithiums, and alkalines. You can also buy the P2D body and tailcap later should you decide you like 123As better. The circuit of these lights is more efficient than the newer lights
replacing them.

Now that you have a choice where you don't really have to choose between the two, let me explain the differences. AAs are more readily available in stores in all chemistries and can be cheaper in stores as well. Lithiums are cheap if you buy in bulk online. The AA form factor gives you a rechargeable option, a cheap (alkaline or carbon zinc) option, and a cold weather and long runtime option (lithium). 123As give you a long runtime and cold weather option only. Rechargeable lithium ions generally have too high of a voltage. They can fry many flashlights. Flashlights made to also use them sometimes only give you a high level. Protected cells are safer, but many won't fit in your light. There is a safer chemistry that doesn't require a protection circuit and is the proper voltage, but they are lower capacity and have less energy density than NiMH AAs. I wouldn't suggest using lithium ion AAs in most lights as they may ruin the l.e.d. or the circuit, and void the warranty.

Now for the disadvantages of each (and a little history). Once NiMH batteries reached 2700 mAh, many people discovered that they barely got any charges out of them before they developed a high self discharge rate (they drained power shortly after charging). Many companies came out with lower capacity Low Self Discharge (LSD) batteries such as Sanyo Eneloops and Rayovac Hybrids which lasted much longer (in #s of charges) and came precharged. For those that wanted higher capacity and low self discharge, they switched to lights using lithium ions. Some lithium ions (18650s) have more power than 2 123As and sometimes can be used in the same light (the battery tube has to be made wider for them to fit). Some people found that lithium ions were delicate and couldn't recover from being drained too much. They switched to ones with a protection circuit to avoid this problem and as protection against the small chance of an explosion. Some people switched to the safer lithium ion chemistry which cost them capacity but were safer. In the bigger cells (18650, 17670), the safer chemisty doesn't cost as much capacity as the 123A sized lithium ions compared to 2 123A lithiums. Alkaline batteries can often leak and ruin an expensive light so you may want to avoid them most of the time. Lithium AAs are safer than 123As and can have up to 5 years longer shelf life. Lithium 123As have the potential to explode while venting a deadly, poisonous gas. This is less likely if you use good cells, and use them either in a one cell flashlight or a two cell light with a low battery warning.

alamogunr said:

I just signed up on this forum...

Examples of the lights I am looking at are:

Fenix TK20 and Fenix PD30

Any comments on these would be appreciated.

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Welcome to the forum, Alamogunr.

You have asked one of several question in your posting title that is likely to draw dogmatic, near religious argument. The worst one is whether Surefire is better than Fenix. Don't ask unless you want flames, even from the moderators.

And I thought I would go back to your point. Fenix lights are well designed and built. Middle of the road, few disagree that they have value.

The TK20 is pretty nice, with a solid body and grip. Chunky, durable, a tight spot for max throw. It has two modes, full bright for an hour, and over eight hours with a third of the best output, still pretty bright. Fenix uses an LED module chosen to produce a warm white light color trading off the max output of the (slightly) higher output Cree LED's.

I know nothing about the PD30. As others have said here, if you already own a stock of NiMH AA's and a good charger, I would not spend big bucks for a CR123 light. I did buy a Romisen RC-F4 from Dealextreme. It's inexpensive, has a great beam, and for a whopping $15 delivered, it's a killer deal. A perfect light to keep in your glovebox.

For me, a light I intend to use regularly will be a 2xAA, and I suggest you look at the Fenix L2D, a great all round light with useful low light modes. It is not as much a "thrower" (tightly focused beam for max reach) as the TK20, but it is a great all-purpose light.

The answer to your question really must depend on how you intend to use the light.

Go to www.light-reviews.com and see what they have to say. Look for reviews by selfbuilt or thisisnascar on this forum.

If you buy a Fenix, look at fenix-store.com or 4sevens.com and use the discount code CPF8 to get an 8% discount. Free shipping, and great service.

Lastly, read the "welcome mat" for a lot of good general info:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/172991