P60 questions 6P vs. C2, M30 vs M60

I want something with a warm Malkoff drop in, this leads me to two questions. Which host and which drop in.

Sure 6P vs. C2? The 6P is less expensive, the C2 can be had with HA III. I don't really have a preference on the looks so convince me one way or another. Do the differences make the C2 worth the extra money. Also if I go with the M30 I'd want to run 18650's. I gather that the 6P can be bored out to fit these, how about the C2?

M60W vs M30W? I'd like to be able to run CR123's as a backup but realistically I'm going to run rechargeable batteries 99% of the time. So what are real life run-times for the M30W with 18650? M60W with 2 x RCR123? Lastly is the M60 significantly brighter then the M30?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Looking at the two lights you will see that the 6P has very little reduced diameter for flats, while the C2 is cut deeply for its flats. The 6P has a thicker tube, more metal than the C2. The 6P, I think, is a better choice for rreaming for the largest protected 18650 cells. I have had my M3 (same 1" diameter tube as the 6P,C2, and similiar deep flats as C2) reamed for unprotected 18650, and the result is a fairly thin body tube that should not be reamed further for protected 18650's.

Bill

The M30 on a fresh 3.7v lithium ion is actually brighter than the M60. Not by much but it is. I vastly prefer the C2, I EDC this light clipped to my pocket with a standard M60. Runtime for an M60 on 2 cr123a's is just over 1.5 hours, followed by a long period of dimming. This is nice because you won't need to worry about the light suddenly winking out because the rechargable's protection circuit kicked in. The M30's are supposed to get a bit over 1 hour on an 18650, using protected cells they'll dim slightly and then cut out completely. Protected cells are a must if you use standard chemistry lithium ions, I will be using IMR's because they're inherently safe, but protected lithium cobalt does perform better. Unprotected lithium cobalts are a serious hazard and I won't touch them. Since you seem pretty set on using rechargables then I'd go with the M30, and keep some 123a's and a spacer for spares. Using 2 at the same time will likely fry the module so make sure you don't do that. The real trick here is figuring out whether you want the standard or flood module. I think the flood really is better for 90% of uses, but the non-flood has the advantage of flexibility. With the right diffusion filter in place it can do double duty depending on your mood/needs.

Bullzeyebill said:

The 6P has a thicker tube, more metal than the C2. The 6P, I think, is a better choice for reaming for the largest protected 18650 cells.

Bill

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That's what I was worried about. Sounds like if I go with the M30 I'll be better off with the 6P as a host.

Yoda4561 said:

Runtime for an M60 on 2 cr123a's is just over 1.5 hours, followed by a long period of dimming. This is nice because you won't need to worry about the light suddenly winking out because the rechargable's protection circuit kicked in.

The M30's are supposed to get a bit over 1 hour on an 18650, using protected cells they'll dim slightly and then cut out completely.

Since you seem pretty set on using rechargables then I'd go with the M30, and keep some 123a's and a spacer for spares.

The real trick here is figuring out whether you want the standard or flood module. I think the flood really is better for 90% of uses

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I'm not too worried about the light just kicking off when the protection kicks in as I'll almost always have my EDC on me as a backup. I also usually try to change batteries before the protection kicks in anyway.

Malkoff claim 1.25 hours on the M30 with a CR123, from that I'd expect 2+ hours on an 18650. Are the advertised claim not accurate or what?

I'm am pretty set on rechargeables. I hate the idea of throwing batteries away all the time and I'm not fan of the cost either. That said, primaries are a god backup option to me. Where can I get a spacer?

Regarding throw vs. flood. I'm planning on this being a camping light and I'm really drawn to the idea of something with better color rendition for cooking and such. So a smooth beam and good flood would be nice, but if it can't throw a good ways in addition I won't be happy. Plus I can always get a surefire diffuser for up close stuff.

Thanks for the input everyone, keep it coming! Right now I think I'm leaning towards a 6P and an M30W running 18650's or maybe 17670's if boring it our is more difficult then I can handle on my own.

I only have the standard M30, it rides inside my UF C1 powered by a 18650 cell. This light gives me the benefit of the clip and it can tailstand. The M30 is very bright and I only tend to use it outdoors around the house and nearby parks. I think that it is quite floody relative to many other lamps that I have, the M30W would have to be very floody in comparison. I think that it draws about 1A, so on a 2.2A cell it should run for much longer than an hour.

You can get the new Solarforce L2 host that fits the 18650, your choice of crenellated or non crenellated bezel, forward or reverse clicky switches and drop in any Malkoff module you like. It will also still take to CR123 size batteries as well. I have one very nice, convenient.
Lighthound.com has them in stock.

IIRC the m30 circuit draws more power from a 3.7 volt batter than it does from a 3 volt, which is why it ends up being brighter than the M60. Because of that the 18650 and cr123 runtimes don't scale with capacity, since they're operating at different output levels.

Build a 6P from an FM or Leef 1x18650 body. It'll probably be a lot easier in the end, and cheaper.

Eric

mdocod said:

Build a 6P from an FM or Leef 1x18650 body. It'll probably be a lot easier in the end, and cheaper.

Eric

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You are right, there seems to be plenty of options for a single 18650 body with a "C" head and "C" tail that it just does not make much sense to bore out a Surefire body anymore.......however, it is harder to find a non-Surefire "C" tail......I used to get the Leef ones but they have dried up......

mdocod said:

Build a 6P from an FM or Leef 1x18650 body. It'll probably be a lot easier in the end, and cheaper.

Eric

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Easier sure, but how do you figure cheaper? A 6P runs ~$60 and all I'd need after that is the drop in. Whereas most Leef body's are ~$50 and I'd still need to get a head and a tail.

As for the boring, I think that is something I can do myself, I've got a good selection of tools and I'm a hands on type person.

If there is something I'm missing please let me know, I'd also appreciate links to parts. I don't see any 1 x 18650 Leef body's on lighthound.

Axion said:

Sure 6P vs. C2? The 6P is less expensive, the C2 can be had with HA III. I don't really have a preference on the looks so convince me one way or another. Do the differences make the C2 worth the extra money. Also if I go with the M30 I'd want to run 18650's. I gather that the 6P can be bored out to fit these, how about the C2?
M60W vs M30W? I'd like to be able to run CR123's as a backup but realistically I'm going to run rechargeable batteries 99% of the time. So what are real life run-times for the M30W with 18650? M60W with 2 x RCR123? Lastly is the M60 significantly brighter then the M30?

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Sorry it took me this long to get here!

W is a superb choice, just have to say that up-front.
If you want to have an 18650 cell get a leef tube, sadly Lighthound is out right now. The bored out Surefire bodies are not as strudy after boring, especially the C2 under tha grip ring.
If you want to run 2 Cr123's or RCR123 a regular 6P is perfectly fine.
The M60 can run on 2 RCR123's and primay cells if you want. Primary cells will give you better runtime. I think less than an hour.
The M30 can run at a level between an M60L and an M60LL on 1 CR123 and a spacer cell or 1 17650 in a stock body. The 18650 will give you a bit over 2 hours and for me the extra capacity was easily worth the cost of the Leef tube.
The M30 is brighter than the M60 by a little tiny bit if you are using li-ion.

My favorite is the M30 in a leef 1 18650 tube. Looks like a HA 6P! The first link in my sig will show you.
The least expensive Surefire option is the M60 6P and 2 RCR123 but the runtime suffers.

Cheapest would be the Solarforce 18650 solution and the M30!! The Solarforce body will be stronger than a bored out SF tube.

You can get a FiveMega 1x18650 body with C tail and head here. Price is $34 plus $5 shipping to the US (any quantity of bodies).

The key phrase is "in the end". This refers to life cycle costs, probably dominiated by the cost of batteries if you use your light a lot.

The Marketplace has several ads for 6P bezels and tailcaps in the $15-$20 range. Thus, total parts cost becomes ~$75. Price delta vs buying a standard 6P is at least $15. Could be more since you can often find 6Ps for sale on the Marketplace for less than $60. Plus, you can sell the included P60 LA and recoup another $5-$10. But let's stick with $15 for now.

Then, you have to get at least one 18650 cell (or scrounge one from a discarded laptop computer battery pack) and a charger. The cell can cost about $13 from Lighthound for one AW protected cell, or $11 for one AW IMR "safe chemistry" cell. Price delta running total is now $26-$28.

The charger can cost ~$20-$40, depending on whether you get an inexpensive Ultrafire WF-139 charger or a better-quality but more expensive Pila IBC. Price delta running total is now ~$46-$68.

Let's say that primary 123A lithiums cost about $1.50 each (you certainly can get them for less, but this is a reasonable price). You'd use two to drive an M60, or $3 per pair. Advertised run time is 1.5 hrs.

Based on the total price delta of $46-$68, you'd have to use about 15-23 pairs of primary 123A lithiums before you recover the extra costs associated with going the 18650 route. That corresponds to about 22-34 hours of use.

The question is how often do you use your flashlight? 1 min per day? That would mean about 1300-2000 days to burn through 15-23 pairs of primary cells. 10 min per day? Crossover time decreases to 130-200 days. 100 min per day? Now you are down to 2-3 weeks.

But then you'd have also thrown 30-46 dead cells in the trash. Don't get me wrong, I'm no "Green Freak" , but in this day and age of so many rechargeable solutions, IMO, it's senseless to use primaries as your primary (pun intended) source of power.

As backup; sure. When away from utility power for extended periods for recharging (like backpacking, etc.); sure. When your life depends on it (LEO & military); sure. But for everyday use (most of us flashaholics), buy a good charger and some good LiIons (the best type/types/size/sizes to suit your needs).

Just my $0.02 worth!

I'm assuming the OP is setup for 18650's, or has no problem with getting setup, so price difference between CR123's, and running Li-Ion is not his consideration. the M30 is nice in that you are good with a 6P length body using one 17670, or 18650 (bored body) for 220 lumens or so, and you can add a CR123 spacer and go with about 130 lumens using one CR123. You can add an A19 to the 6P and run two NiMh cells for very good runtime at about 130 lumens. Lots of flexability with the M30 and Gene Malkoff has made the M30 durable enough to withstand 2XCR123's for short term usage, or accidental use of two CR123's.

Bill

Bullzeyebill said:

Lots of flexability with the M30 and Gene Malkoff has made the M30 durable enough to withstand 2XCR123's for short term usage, or accidental use of two CR123's.

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Really? I wonder how long it would last..............

Man I would be afraid I'd kill it! I bought one of those 3 dollar spacer cells so I could run 1 primary in it as a back-up.

Bullzeyebill said:

I'm assuming the OP is setup for 18650's, or has no problem with getting setup, so price difference between CR123's, and running Li-Ion is not his consideration. the M30 is nice in that you are good with a 6P length body using one 17670, or 18650 (bored body) for 220 lumens or so, and you can add a CR123 spacer and go with about 130 lumens using one CR123. You can add an A19 to the 6P and run two NiMh cells for very good runtime at about 130 lumens. Lots of flexability with the M30 and Gene Malkoff has made the M30 durable enough to withstand 2XCR123's for short term usage, or accidental use of two CR123's.

Bill

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There is no question that a 1x18650 body provides lots of flexibility wrt battery choices. If we could put a value on that, life would be grand.

If we assume that the OP already has a Li-ion charger and at least one 18650, that certainly reduces the tangible item price delta. So, let's be less conservative regarding the 6P cost.

OpticsHQ has a 6P for $62. After applying the CPF discount and the OpticsHQ member discount, the 6P price is about $56. But CPF Marketplace recently had new 6Ps for sale for $40, so a little patience will probably be rewarded with another MP ad with a similar price. Price delta ranges from $19-$35.

With the popularity of LEDs, perhaps the P60 might sell for $5.

Total price delta is $24-$39. At $3 per pair of 123A primaries, you'd have to go through ~8-13 pairs before coming out ahead with secondary cells.

At 1.5 hr run time, we get 12-20 hours (720-1200 min) of use with primaries. At 1 min of use per day, that's 720-1200 days. At 10 min use per day, that's 72-120 days. At 100 min, that's a week to two weeks.

I understand that the OP wanted to explore using 18650s. But if cost is an issue (which it appears it is since he questioned the cost in buying a 1x18650 body, a bezel, and a tailcap), then IMO the way to go is to get 17670s. An AW 17670 from Lighthound is $11 plus shipping. To make the division easy, let's assume $15 total. At $3 per pair of primaries, that's 5 pairs of 123As, or 7.5 hours (450 min) of runtime. Even with a minimum usage of 1 min per day, you'd recoup your cost in <1.5 years.

Justin Case said:

I understand that the OP wanted to explore using 18650s. But if cost is an issue (which it appears it is since he questioned the cost in buying a 1x18650 body, a bezel, and a tailcap),

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I'm not sure, but I think his only issue on cost was that he could save money by boring the 6P tube himself.

Personally, I'd go for a clone host, like the SolarForce L2 18650 version MrGman and Sgt. LED already mentioned. DX has an UltraFire 6PD clone for twenty bucks shipped. It takes 18650s and comes with a R2 dropin.

The only problem with ALL the clones is they have reverse clickies; good for multi-mode modules, but for single mode, I prefer a forward clicky.

Just to clarify some things.

I WILL use rechargeables 99+ % of the time. I have a Pila IBC and have no problem buying an extra 18650. I prefer the run time of 18650's, the ability to top up whenever I want, and the fact I'm not tossing old batteries into the landfill constantly.

I want a quality setup I won't need to mess with down the road that's why I was looking to get a 6P as a host. That said, if boring out the 6P to 18650 dimensions is going to weaken it considerably perhaps I'll have to look at other options. The solarforce options is tempting due to it's price but I think I'd end up wanting to upgrade down the line. I definitely want a forward clicky.

SGT LED:

You said the M30 + 18650 will yield two hours of run time, that's at full power correct? Then I'll get slightly lower output with a 1 x CR123. What would run time be like with a 17670?

I'm also intersted in the Sandwich shop two level push/twisty switch mods any on know anything about those?

Axion said:

Easier sure, but how do you figure cheaper? A 6P runs ~$60 and all I'd need after that is the drop in. Whereas most Leef body's are ~$50 and I'd still need to get a head and a tail.

As for the boring, I think that is something I can do myself, I've got a good selection of tools and I'm a hands on type person.

If there is something I'm missing please let me know, I'd also appreciate links to parts. I don't see any 1 x 18650 Leef body's on lighthound.

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The FM body will be $34 ( https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/214333 ), as for the bezel and tailcap, depends on what you want to use, but you can get perfectly good stuff (used SF, or other after-market) in the $8-20 range. The 18650 SolarForce L2, as others have said, is not a bad SF compatible host at all.. And it's way cheaper than a 6P...

The other issue is that, if you screw up on the boring (easy to do as the O-ring slot/s are a delicate area with very little extra material to work with when boring)... Then you end up buying the body anyways, and you just spend $60 on a tailcap and bezel.

If you own a good lathe and know what you are doing, then by all means, go for it Don't forget to leave a lip up towards the top for the outer spring of lamp assemblies to ride against (or in the case of the M30, a place for the base of the module to seat against).

Eric