Malkoff optics

Chrontius · Dec 16, 2008

I seem to recall that older Malkoff modules used a 6° Fraen optic, but the site is now saying they use 8° Cree optics. Does anyone know if this is true?

If so, when did the change happen?

Kitfisto · Dec 16, 2008

The M60 I bought had a Khatod optic. I am guessing Gene switched over to the Cree optic about 3-4months ago. From the reviews here, the Cree optic functions as well as the Khatods.

MrGman · Dec 16, 2008

I think you are reading that wrong somewhat. Its a Khatod optic specifically for that Cree XR-E model. I don't think Cree is making any optics. Khatod makes optics for specific model LEDs. I have looked at their data sheet. So when you see it say the "cree" optic, I believe it refers to the Khatod model specifically for the Cree die (XR-E???) that Gene is using. I believe there was a previous 6 degree Khatod optic Gene was using and changed to the more appropriate 8 degree one specifically designed for the XR-E Cree die, but still all from Khatod.

I was looking at the series of Khatod optics for Cree LEDs just the other night hoping that they had an ultra narrow one for spot focus output to possible use in a new Malkoff thrower but did not find any.

Sgt. LED · Dec 16, 2008

Oh I wish Gene made 5 degree Malkoff's!
:paypal:

LukeA · Dec 16, 2008

Khatod doesn't make an 8˚ FWHM optic for the XR-E. They make a 6˚ FWHM. The 8˚ is claimed to be Cree-branded by Kaidomain. The optics may be made by Khatod for Cree, but Khatod doesn't sell an 8˚ FWHM on its website.

Axion · Dec 16, 2008

I hope it's not one of the Kai Domain 8 degree optics, I wasn't impressed with the couple I bought to try out. I guess I'll see when my M30W gets here, I'm not too worried though

LukeA · Dec 16, 2008

Axion said:
I hope it's not one of the Kai Domain 8 degree optics, I wasn't impressed with the couple I bought to try out. I guess I'll see when my M30W gets here, I'm not too worried though

What was wrong with your KD optics? I have 20 of them and I don't have any problems.

txgp17 · Dec 16, 2008

I have one of the first brass bodied M60's that used an Optic. It has a Q4 emitter. For some reason, it's beam is tighter than any of the other 5 or so Q5 M60's I've purchased.

Axion · Dec 16, 2008

LukeA said:
What was wrong with your KD optics? I have 20 of them and I don't have any problems.

Nothing wrong with it necessarily just didn't like it. I swapped it into my EX10 for a while and it had weaker throw and didn't get rid of the rings. I wanted a tight beam like the Surefire TIR optics.

That said, I've seen beam shots of the M30W and based on those I bought one. I'll report my feeling on it when I get it, but I'm sure it'll be fine based on what I've read around here.

etc · Dec 16, 2008

Interesting. Which one do I have? Cree I presume?

ace0001a · Dec 16, 2008

Wow, I am surprised after all this time that no one knows about the history of these optics by now. So here are facts:

Gene originally used a Cree optic that was sold by a major Cree distributor here in the US. It was what he was using when his webpage was designed and so that is why it says that there. It is also the same 8 degree optic that Kaidomain sells. If you're not impressed with that optic, then you'll probably feel the same about the M30/60 output. It is believed that Cree doesn't actually manufacture the optic and simply OEM'ed it from another manufacturer (possibly Khatod). Gene has since been using a 6 degree Khatod optic that looks identical to the Cree OEM 8 degree. According to Gene, he said it offers the same beam pattern with a tiny bit more throw...basically saw it as an improvement as is a part of the overall progression of technology. The same can be said about emitters he's used because with the current design, he started with a Cree Q4 bin and is now using Q5s.

In my opinion the Cree/Kaidomain/Khatod optic design outputs an extremely useful beam. It is by no stretch of the imagination desgined for throw, but offers good projection of the light. I can easily hit my neighbor's garage and side of his house across the street from my porch with my M60. The optic does such a good job of collecting the light from the emitter, that the spill on it is amazing. I will say the only drawback I find with this type of optic is that it really needs 100+ lumens for good performace on the narrow degree version...but that's not a big deal as I find it to be generally an excellent performer.

LukeA · Dec 17, 2008

ace0001a said:
Wow, I am surprised after all this time that no one knows about the history of these optics by now. So here are facts:

Gene originally used a Cree optic that was sold by a major Cree distributor here in the US. It was what he was using when his webpage was designed and so that is why it says that there. It is also the same 8 degree optic that Kaidomain sells. If you're not impressed with that optic, then you'll probably feel the same about the M30/60 output. It is believed that Cree doesn't actually manufacture the optic and simply OEM'ed it from another manufacturer (possibly Khatod). Gene has since been using a 6 degree Khatod optic that looks identical to the Cree OEM 8 degree. According to Gene, he said it offers the same beam pattern with a tiny bit more throw...basically saw it as an improvement as is a part of the overall progression of technology. The same can be said about emitters he's used because with the current design, he started with a Cree Q4 bin and is now using Q5s.

In my opinion the Cree/Kaidomain/Khatod optic design outputs an extremely useful beam. It is by no stretch of the imagination desgined for throw, but offers good projection of the light. I can easily hit my neighbor's garage and side of his house across the street from my porch with my M60. The optic does such a good job of collecting the light from the emitter, that the spill on it is amazing. I will say the only drawback I find with this type of optic is that it really needs 100+ lumens for good performace on the narrow degree version...but that's not a big deal as I find it to be generally an excellent performer.

I think I remember reading Gene say that he used to use the Khatod 6˚ but switched to the Cree 8˚. I don't remember the reason, but I do remember that the website used to say Khatod 6˚ but now says Cree 8˚.

But anyway, I definitely agree with you about the performance. In fact, I'd say these optics are my favorite light collimating devices. Small size, lots of throw, decent spill, and great efficiency. Add to that the fact that they only cost a buck apiece, and :paypal:

ace0001a · Dec 17, 2008

LukeA said:
I think I remember reading Gene say that he used to use the Khatod 6˚ but switched to the Cree 8˚. I don't remember the reason, but I do remember that the website used to say Khatod 6˚ but now says Cree 8˚.

But anyway, I definitely agree with you about the performance. In fact, I'd say these optics are my favorite light collimating devices. Small size, lots of throw, decent spill, and great efficiency. Add to that the fact that they only cost a buck apiece, and

I actually talk with Gene every once in a while and as far as I know, he still uses the Khatod 6 degree optic. But the Cree 8 degree ones that Kaidomain sells in 10 for $10 pack is an excellent deal. I still have a bunch of them myself. Back when Gene was still using the DX P60 Reflector/Pill set for his early M60s, I sent him some of the Cree optics I got from Kaidomain. He apparently liked them instantly and went the way of designing the custom heatsink/module that we know today as the M60. I was made aware of them by CPF Member Mr_Light as he used them to mod his old school flashlights.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/158873

Yoda4561 · Dec 17, 2008

That is interesting actually. I remember the website did used to specify a Khatod 6 degree optic for the M60, now both teh M60 and M60f are listed as cree 8 and cree 20 degree optics.

ace0001a · Dec 17, 2008

Yoda4561 said:
That is interesting actually. I remember the website did used to specify a Khatod 6 degree optic for the M60, now both teh M60 and M60f are listed as cree 8 and cree 20 degree optics.

Well as someone with experience of selling online products (I used to do ebay for recovery management company), my guess is that perhaps he wants to leave his options open with what optics he uses because it could depend on what his supplier has available. It could be plausible that it's easier to get the OEM Cree ones from his supplier or suppliers rather than the Khatod one. In this case if he states that he uses the Cree 8 degress optic, but suddenly aqcuires a supply of Khatod 6 degree, there would be nothing to complain about because the Khatod optic is arguably better than the OEM Cree one. If you look at the Khatod and OEM Cree optics, they both look identical...it could very well be the case that Khatod simply OEMs an 8 degree design for Cree.

jbosman1013 · Dec 17, 2008

I can't see much of a difference between the two but the new optic has a smoother finish on the inside. In the photo at the bottom you can see the slight differences in the beam.

1st run M60

New M60W

Yoda4561 · Dec 17, 2008

I have the old M60 optic. Like your picture it has a sort of "light orange peel" appearance instead of being perfectly smooth. I wonder if the tighter beam on the m60w is the optic or the slightly lower output compared to the M60?

jbosman1013 · Dec 17, 2008

Yoda4561 said:
I have the old M60 optic. Like your picture it has a sort of "light orange peel" appearance instead of being perfectly smooth. I wonder if the tighter beam on the m60w is the optic or the slightly lower output compared to the M60?

I you look closely you can see how the old M60 has a more broad hot spot, I think this is because of the orange peel. The newer optic has what I call tighter spot rings, more like a step down instead of a fade. Its hard to tell any difference in brightness in real world use, the M60W being the clear winner of the two. The "W" also seems to have more effectiveness when there is ambient light around.

MrGman · Dec 17, 2008

That "orange peel" texture may not be in the optic but what's behind it being shown through the optic on that older model. Really hard to tell. Nice pictures regardless.

I still wish that Khatod would make a 3 or 4 degree optic that could be used for more of a "thrower" torch module. I think it would be great seeing the quality of their other optics.

Yoda4561 · Dec 17, 2008

That would definately be awesome, I doubt we'll see one though, I don't see what market demand there would be for one outside of flashlights. I'm assuming khatod designs these more for general purpose commercial/room lighting fixtures.

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