Lara
Newly Enlightened
Is it normal that the SF M2 tailcap makes a rattling noise when the light is shaken? I was a bit surprised as this is marketed as a 'Special Ops' light. Shouldn't it be absolutely silent for this purpose?
Surefire M2 rattling noise
- Thread starter Lara
- Start date
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PieThatCorner
Enlightened
The only rattling noise I hear in my M2 is the 123 lithiums moving about when shaking the light fairly vigorously. Does it sound like it may be the batteries?
Although marketed as a SOPS light, the rattling sound of this nature (batteries) is quite minor and isn't considered a high noise signature for equipment... at least not compared to the likes of say, loaded magazines.
-Jim
Although marketed as a SOPS light, the rattling sound of this nature (batteries) is quite minor and isn't considered a high noise signature for equipment... at least not compared to the likes of say, loaded magazines.
-Jim
PieThatCorner
Enlightened
Well, now you've done it... I'm shaking all of my flashlights now... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think I know what you mean, Lara. On my C2 and M3 if you remove the tail cap and shake it you can hear the switch assembly rattle because it floats loose in the tailcap. When you screw the cap back on till you engage the spring and tap the tail cap it rattles, and pretty loudly at that.
I think in order to minimize the rattle you have to screw the bezel to the constant on position then back off until you line up the detent on the cap and body (1/2 turn) that put you in momentary on then when you want lockout, only turn 1/2 turn back from that position, it doesn't completely solve the rattle but it makes sure that enough of the spring is engaging the batteries to keep it from making too much noise.
Jim, an easy way to see what we mean is to just pinch the button between your thumb and first finger and wiggle it and you will see that it moves side to side pretty easily because of the float it has. I think this is what is causing the loudest rattle and not the batteries. I don't know if it's a tolerance problem or what but the spring tension does not totally dampen it.
My Pelican M6 does not have the problem, the switch is tight in the tailcap and does not have any float, the only rattle is that of the batteries which is as Jim stated very minimal. This makes me wonder if the switch is supposed to be that loose in the tailcap or not. Jim, (or anyone else with a Surefire Combatlight) when you take your tailcap off and wiggle it does the switch rattle around loose in it, or is it tight?
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think in order to minimize the rattle you have to screw the bezel to the constant on position then back off until you line up the detent on the cap and body (1/2 turn) that put you in momentary on then when you want lockout, only turn 1/2 turn back from that position, it doesn't completely solve the rattle but it makes sure that enough of the spring is engaging the batteries to keep it from making too much noise.
Jim, an easy way to see what we mean is to just pinch the button between your thumb and first finger and wiggle it and you will see that it moves side to side pretty easily because of the float it has. I think this is what is causing the loudest rattle and not the batteries. I don't know if it's a tolerance problem or what but the spring tension does not totally dampen it.
My Pelican M6 does not have the problem, the switch is tight in the tailcap and does not have any float, the only rattle is that of the batteries which is as Jim stated very minimal. This makes me wonder if the switch is supposed to be that loose in the tailcap or not. Jim, (or anyone else with a Surefire Combatlight) when you take your tailcap off and wiggle it does the switch rattle around loose in it, or is it tight?
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
PieThatCorner
Enlightened
TSG -- you've definitely hit the nail on the head with that one... I just tried that (removed the tailcap) and it is a considerable rattle. And strange enough, between my old M3 and the newer M3 that I have, the older one doesn't have such a distinctive and loud rattle. But the newer one has the same rattle as my M2 tailcap. Hmmmmmm... wonder if it is a tolerance issue.
My E2e tailcap is fairly quiet by the way...
-Jim
My E2e tailcap is fairly quiet by the way...
-Jim
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
Jim, another question, on the older M3 did you ever have any intermitant activation or sticking problems with the switch? I am now wondering if they have, for some reason, purposely slacked the tolerance on the switches in newer models. It's odd because I have had my C2 since January and I think that the rattle first caught my attention last week and it made me wonder if there was something wrong then I checked my M3 and it had the same rattle so I figured they are consistent in their manufacture so I just shrugged it off and I login today and it's being discussed, I love CPF!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
hey tsg, about the sticking problem i suspect that was due to the O-ring on the tailcap switch itself drying out, which caused the switch to stick up /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif the only rattling i notice with my C2 is when i shake it really hard and the batteries rattle a bit.
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
Howdy chamenos, hows things? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif How old is your C2, is it older than 10 months? When you remove the tailcap completely and shake it does it rattle significantly?
I suspect this is a fairly recent development and may have been an in-line change in tolerance, maybe to avoid an operational issue, who knows, anyhow it does make alot more noise than my PM6 and it would be nice to solve the mystery of what is supposedly a "Spec-ops" light.
Oh, not only do I hear the rattle but I can also hear and feel the spring boinging away at the same time, wierd.
I'm sure Al will have something to add to this, as to whether it will solve the mystery, or merely dismiss it is yet to be seen. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I suspect this is a fairly recent development and may have been an in-line change in tolerance, maybe to avoid an operational issue, who knows, anyhow it does make alot more noise than my PM6 and it would be nice to solve the mystery of what is supposedly a "Spec-ops" light.
Oh, not only do I hear the rattle but I can also hear and feel the spring boinging away at the same time, wierd.
I'm sure Al will have something to add to this, as to whether it will solve the mystery, or merely dismiss it is yet to be seen. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Size15's
Flashaholic
I wonder if Al reads these threads?
It would be interesting to ask a "Spec-Ops" M2 user if it was an issue to those for whom the M2 is intended?
Can you think of a situation where it would be an issue?
Al
It would be interesting to ask a "Spec-Ops" M2 user if it was an issue to those for whom the M2 is intended?
Can you think of a situation where it would be an issue?
Al
PieThatCorner
Enlightened
Well, fact of the matter is, it shouldn't be that big of a deal -- as long as the light operates properly. My MagCharger, UltraStinger, and various other lights have a distinctive rattle as well.
My older M3 never had a sticky tailcap pushbutton... I just attribute it to be dirty all the time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif -- all that gunk in there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
-Jim
My older M3 never had a sticky tailcap pushbutton... I just attribute it to be dirty all the time /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif -- all that gunk in there. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
-Jim
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
Al I only tease because your undying loyalty to Surefire (admirable actually 'cause it shows you are a man of principle) make you an easy target, I just hope the products remain worthy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Yes I could think of an instance this could get an operator in trouble. You are on a night-op (prisoner snatch, rescue attempt, whatever) you are a infiltrating by walk in, due to dense vegetation, overhead power lines, again, whatever. As you approach the enemy perimeter moving as stealthy as possible to eliminate a sentry, you are within 25 meters and closing fast you raise your silenced MP5 to eliminate the target and your weapon lanyard hangs up momentarily on the butt/gripring of the M3 protruding from it's carrier on your vest causing a rattle that alerts the sentry to your approach, you now have to engage an alert and active target, suprise is ruined, and the mission has gone hot, all that quickly.
Granted that is fiction, but I could see it becoming someones unfortunate reality. I already think these guys are laden with too much crap and think it Ironic that a guy in a robe and sandals with an AK, two full mags in his pocket, and a cheap Russian made NVS goggle could take out quite a few of our tekno warriors in a much more stealthy manner, and this does worry me.
I know that guys refer to a full battle dress as "full battle rattle" but I still think the attempt should be made to give them the most silent gear they could use.
Hell I don't even totally agree with tactical nylon as a substitute for cotton webbing, sounds like someone wearing corduroys trying to sneak up on you. I hate those damn snap lock buckles and velcro too!
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Yes I could think of an instance this could get an operator in trouble. You are on a night-op (prisoner snatch, rescue attempt, whatever) you are a infiltrating by walk in, due to dense vegetation, overhead power lines, again, whatever. As you approach the enemy perimeter moving as stealthy as possible to eliminate a sentry, you are within 25 meters and closing fast you raise your silenced MP5 to eliminate the target and your weapon lanyard hangs up momentarily on the butt/gripring of the M3 protruding from it's carrier on your vest causing a rattle that alerts the sentry to your approach, you now have to engage an alert and active target, suprise is ruined, and the mission has gone hot, all that quickly.
Granted that is fiction, but I could see it becoming someones unfortunate reality. I already think these guys are laden with too much crap and think it Ironic that a guy in a robe and sandals with an AK, two full mags in his pocket, and a cheap Russian made NVS goggle could take out quite a few of our tekno warriors in a much more stealthy manner, and this does worry me.
I know that guys refer to a full battle dress as "full battle rattle" but I still think the attempt should be made to give them the most silent gear they could use.
Hell I don't even totally agree with tactical nylon as a substitute for cotton webbing, sounds like someone wearing corduroys trying to sneak up on you. I hate those damn snap lock buckles and velcro too!
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Al: unnecessary noise can definitely be a problem at times when an operator might want to remain as silent as possible. the operator might even just be a regular john doe sneaking around the house after hearing a strange noise. the intruder might be unaware of john doe's prescence but the rattling noise might alert the intruder and possibly put john doe's life in danger. i think its better to prevent a potential problem than to wait for it to happen when least expected.
tsg: things are fine, thanks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif i still carry my C2 around a lot. when installed with batteries it doesn't rattle at all (except for the batteries if i shake it hard), but if i remove the tailcap and shake it, it does rattle quite audibly. i've only had my C2 a couple of months, but its definitely a pretty old model because it came with a lexan lens, older belt clip without the lanyard attachment point and the surefire logo is the older one with the crosshairs. btw the serial number is A03461. i guess i got lucky here as the only rattling i get when i shake the light really vigorously is from the batteries.
tsg: things are fine, thanks! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif i still carry my C2 around a lot. when installed with batteries it doesn't rattle at all (except for the batteries if i shake it hard), but if i remove the tailcap and shake it, it does rattle quite audibly. i've only had my C2 a couple of months, but its definitely a pretty old model because it came with a lexan lens, older belt clip without the lanyard attachment point and the surefire logo is the older one with the crosshairs. btw the serial number is A03461. i guess i got lucky here as the only rattling i get when i shake the light really vigorously is from the batteries.
Size15's
Flashaholic
Just so I understand things.
With the TailCap removed the batteries rattle?
And this is a problem in use?
If you are having to shake your SureFire to make it rattle shouldn't you be concentrating on why you're being so quiet in the first place?
If you can hear your SureFire rattling as you walk along or as you are holding it or using it - I'm not sure your SureFire is quite okay. I'm confused because I can't see how a SureFire can make enough noise in use to be a problem.
I can't understand how a SureFire can make more noise then you or I would make whilst sneaking about... Can you really hear your SureFire when you are sneaking about?
Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
With the TailCap removed the batteries rattle?
And this is a problem in use?
If you are having to shake your SureFire to make it rattle shouldn't you be concentrating on why you're being so quiet in the first place?
If you can hear your SureFire rattling as you walk along or as you are holding it or using it - I'm not sure your SureFire is quite okay. I'm confused because I can't see how a SureFire can make enough noise in use to be a problem.
I can't understand how a SureFire can make more noise then you or I would make whilst sneaking about... Can you really hear your SureFire when you are sneaking about?
Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
No, the caps all rattle with the cap off it's just more apparent how much play the switch has by taking the cap off and wiggling it. The older ones only suffer from battery rattle, which is insignificant, the new ones suffer from battery and switch rattle even when closed and in the operational settings which combined, is fairly loud.
Lara had pointed out and we were postulating that if we thought that they were significantly loud, how could these lights be considered Special Operations lights as is, which I thought was a good point since I was taught that you tape your sling mounts, tags and buckles and anything else that makes noise for stealth operations and just tapping these lights lightly on a finger resulted in a rattle that was louder than any of the mounts, tags or buckles I had ever heard. But do smart weapons and good optics no longer put spec ops. clandestinely close enough to the enemy for this to matter? I doubt it. maybe we could ask some as Al said. The Army Special Forces send their medical specialists here to New York for the final portion of their trauma training and my friend Aaron has access to them so maybe I'll see if I can interview a few.
We're just theorizing here but so far I think the evidence is on our side. Now whether an operator who's life truly depends on these things would show concern, I even doubt we would get a consistent answer from them.
I just tested again by single wrapping the batteries with electrical tape, It deadened the battery sound, but the switch still rattles and boings a bit (when you tap it lightly) but it's not too bad, so I guess in order to spec. ops qualify your light, you have to wrap the batteries or in their case battery ( I think they use prepacked single two and three cell units). That is probably what they have to do to cut down on noise anyhow.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Lara had pointed out and we were postulating that if we thought that they were significantly loud, how could these lights be considered Special Operations lights as is, which I thought was a good point since I was taught that you tape your sling mounts, tags and buckles and anything else that makes noise for stealth operations and just tapping these lights lightly on a finger resulted in a rattle that was louder than any of the mounts, tags or buckles I had ever heard. But do smart weapons and good optics no longer put spec ops. clandestinely close enough to the enemy for this to matter? I doubt it. maybe we could ask some as Al said. The Army Special Forces send their medical specialists here to New York for the final portion of their trauma training and my friend Aaron has access to them so maybe I'll see if I can interview a few.
We're just theorizing here but so far I think the evidence is on our side. Now whether an operator who's life truly depends on these things would show concern, I even doubt we would get a consistent answer from them.
I just tested again by single wrapping the batteries with electrical tape, It deadened the battery sound, but the switch still rattles and boings a bit (when you tap it lightly) but it's not too bad, so I guess in order to spec. ops qualify your light, you have to wrap the batteries or in their case battery ( I think they use prepacked single two and three cell units). That is probably what they have to do to cut down on noise anyhow.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Size15's
Flashaholic
"We're just theorizing here but so far I think the evidence is on our side. Now whether an operator who's life truly depends on these things would show concern, I even doubt we would get a consistent answer from them."
What evidence? Please show me evidence.
How?
A short video should be a good start.
You are guessing, doubting, theorizing. We're not speaking from real experience of this noice being noticed during training or operations. We're sitting at our PC's tapping flashlights.
How about I suggest something - ask Ken J Good over at Strategos about this. He doesn't work for SureFire and will be able to give his own opinion rather than that of a SureFire employee or someone who is openly biased towards them (such as me)
Please let us know how you get on.
Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
What evidence? Please show me evidence.
How?
A short video should be a good start.
You are guessing, doubting, theorizing. We're not speaking from real experience of this noice being noticed during training or operations. We're sitting at our PC's tapping flashlights.
How about I suggest something - ask Ken J Good over at Strategos about this. He doesn't work for SureFire and will be able to give his own opinion rather than that of a SureFire employee or someone who is openly biased towards them (such as me)
Please let us know how you get on.
Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Lara
Newly Enlightened
Al, please don't get me wrong, I just purchased the M2 (my first Surefire and by far the most expensive flashlight I have), and I do like it very much! I look at my Mag 6D in a different way now.
But I still think that a light designed to be used in close combat special operations must not make any sound when moved, especially not such an unnatural, mechanical sound. The enemy will not think that it was just the wind or something, this kind of sound is unmistakable.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't understand how a SureFire can make more noise then you or I would make whilst sneaking about...Can you really hear your SureFire when you are sneaking about?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I can! Never played hide and seek in the evening with your kids/nieces/nephews/friends? The slightest sound can reveal your position, I am talking from experience. The rattle of my M2 is beyond what is acceptable in this kind of situation. You would actually have to pay extra attention to your flashlight and make sure not to change its position too fast, instead of concentrating on the action.
I am still one happy girl with my new light, though. After all, I am *not* a soldier and I don't think that the sound will ever endanger my life... In fact, I just wanted to know if the sound is normal or if my light is defective.
But I still think that a light designed to be used in close combat special operations must not make any sound when moved, especially not such an unnatural, mechanical sound. The enemy will not think that it was just the wind or something, this kind of sound is unmistakable.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't understand how a SureFire can make more noise then you or I would make whilst sneaking about...Can you really hear your SureFire when you are sneaking about?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes I can! Never played hide and seek in the evening with your kids/nieces/nephews/friends? The slightest sound can reveal your position, I am talking from experience. The rattle of my M2 is beyond what is acceptable in this kind of situation. You would actually have to pay extra attention to your flashlight and make sure not to change its position too fast, instead of concentrating on the action.
I am still one happy girl with my new light, though. After all, I am *not* a soldier and I don't think that the sound will ever endanger my life... In fact, I just wanted to know if the sound is normal or if my light is defective.
Size15's
Flashaholic
Based on what I've experience and from what you've posted I have to conclude that your M2 is different from any SureFire I've ever handled.
Whether it is defective I can't tell. It doesn't sound right though (pun intended).
If it's an issue that is going to bother you then I suggest you contact SureFire 800 828 8809 and arrange to send it back for replacement.
Thank you for explaining in more detail.
Al
Whether it is defective I can't tell. It doesn't sound right though (pun intended).
If it's an issue that is going to bother you then I suggest you contact SureFire 800 828 8809 and arrange to send it back for replacement.
Thank you for explaining in more detail.
Al
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think that evidence is present (at least enough to open the subject to debate) when three or four owners of the light's post experience of the same phenomenon, one so much so they were compelled to raise the issue in the first place which attracted the attention of those that noticed the same phenomenon but hadn't thought of it in context till they read the original posting.
I realised, after reading Lara's post, that the noise eminating from the lights as I had noticed previously and dismissed, could and possibly would in fact alert someone to my presence or proximity in any situation and it is only common sense to draw the conclusion that if I or other's who had noticed this phenomenon could be given away by this rattle, then someone who was possibly reliant on stealth or silence to obtain an objective, could also be given away, to the detriment of their mission. I think it would be a concern to me.
It's really just applied logic. Seems pretty sound, and we are just debating it.
As far as asking Mr. Good, aren't you also the light Moderator over at Strategos and Isn't Mr. Good a retailer of Surefire lights, and the president of a tactical training school with a low light training program that relies on Surefire's support. I heard he's had some problems with Surefire regarding the development of his own line of lights, but I still think I'd like an even less biased opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I realised, after reading Lara's post, that the noise eminating from the lights as I had noticed previously and dismissed, could and possibly would in fact alert someone to my presence or proximity in any situation and it is only common sense to draw the conclusion that if I or other's who had noticed this phenomenon could be given away by this rattle, then someone who was possibly reliant on stealth or silence to obtain an objective, could also be given away, to the detriment of their mission. I think it would be a concern to me.
It's really just applied logic. Seems pretty sound, and we are just debating it.
As far as asking Mr. Good, aren't you also the light Moderator over at Strategos and Isn't Mr. Good a retailer of Surefire lights, and the president of a tactical training school with a low light training program that relies on Surefire's support. I heard he's had some problems with Surefire regarding the development of his own line of lights, but I still think I'd like an even less biased opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Size15's
Flashaholic
Ken's company does not rely on SureFire's support.
Ken's company is making their own flashlights.
Ken's company retails a number of brands.
I mention Ken because he's approachable on the subject of lights etc and has much experience using them and close contact with those who use them for real.
Who else do we know who can give us feedback? Pat?
You could ask over at TacticalForums or Lightfighter.
I'm still not clear on what you're doing with the M2 to make it noisy. Is it holstered, or in your hand. Are you moving the M2?
I need some feedback from "operators" to convince me that this is something that needs addressing.
Why should I need convincing that something needs addressing regarding SureFires? I shouldn't!
The case needs to be brought to SureFire Tech Support - if SureFire don't know about it, how can they do anything about it?
Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Ken's company is making their own flashlights.
Ken's company retails a number of brands.
I mention Ken because he's approachable on the subject of lights etc and has much experience using them and close contact with those who use them for real.
Who else do we know who can give us feedback? Pat?
You could ask over at TacticalForums or Lightfighter.
I'm still not clear on what you're doing with the M2 to make it noisy. Is it holstered, or in your hand. Are you moving the M2?
I need some feedback from "operators" to convince me that this is something that needs addressing.
Why should I need convincing that something needs addressing regarding SureFires? I shouldn't!
The case needs to be brought to SureFire Tech Support - if SureFire don't know about it, how can they do anything about it?
Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
tsg68
Flashlight Enthusiast
Don't get me wrong either Al, I have no illusions about who I am. I was raised with firearms and have done my fair share of hunting and know any noise is of certain concern in that situation and I also have done my fair share of sneaking around (not in the creepy weird way you're thinking) and realise, yes it would give me away too!
I don't think it's a defect as both my C2 and M3 do it, maybe it's just an oversight, Maybe tactical teams do have too much gear now and have become desensitized to the amount of noise they make, that would be unfortunate. I know growing up and hunting, we wouldn't dare take noisy gear like this into the field and man we were quiet! We were even careful about scent, camoflage etc. and it payed off. My hunting days are kind of limited now mostlly to dove hunting in New Mexico when I visit family there, but I haven't forgotten what I learned.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I don't think it's a defect as both my C2 and M3 do it, maybe it's just an oversight, Maybe tactical teams do have too much gear now and have become desensitized to the amount of noise they make, that would be unfortunate. I know growing up and hunting, we wouldn't dare take noisy gear like this into the field and man we were quiet! We were even careful about scent, camoflage etc. and it payed off. My hunting days are kind of limited now mostlly to dove hunting in New Mexico when I visit family there, but I haven't forgotten what I learned.
Later,
TSG /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
