Have LED's really caught up with incans?

I came by for a visit to see what is new in the past few months, I see all these little lights that claim big throw. The Dereelight DBS is one that caught my eye, can this thing throw like my old faithful M3T?
So many new lights out there..

LEDs have outclassed incan in efficiency and are now in the process of outperforming the big HIDs.

In raw luminous flux though, incan and HID still ruel supreme. The state-of-the-art big LEDs (4 die LEDs MC-E or P7) all produce about 900lm or so, and you still need a cluster of them to compare to a bright incan.

With that comes the fact that HID is still way more focussable than LED and rules in the throw department. Although modern developments like aspheric lenses and new TIRs are about to change that.

What you see is LED taking over the market up to 250lm almost completely right now and ever expanding "upwards".

Color rendition is another important factor being adressed right now. We have high powered "High CRI" LEDs like the Nichia 083 or some Cree or Seoul brethren at our disposal, albeit with some losses in output compared to the "colder" LEDs.


Despite that long winded post I can't exactly tell if the Dereelight will outclass your M3T in thrwo though.

bernie

IMO, the KT4 reflector out-throws almost everything else in or below it's size range, given comparable bulbs/LEDs. I say almost, because I think some of the older SF turboheads still outdo it. The SRTH and 3" turboheads still rule.

Well I'm waiting to see if they can release a warm/neutral tint version of the MCE. They should be able to, and I think that will be a real nice light even compared to an incan. It really depends on the application though. I'm not expecting LEDs though to 'outclass' the M6 for a few years yet.

With nice rechargeable power sources I don't think we have to get rid of the Incan.

the incan You see with Joe average are only a joke now,
think of anything in size 2AA, or with a price or runtime an occasional user will accept.

SPECIAL PURPOSE lights (= big, or heavy, or short runtime, or all together) remain special.
Depends if one is willing to accept the drawbacks

So there must be a decent LED replacement for the MN15/16 by now?

Thanks for the help, and thanks for not hanging me for a seemingly newb question, there is just so much new to absorb right now.

I was just about to run out to my back yard and do some tests between some LEDs I have and some incandescents (gonna make a video and post it on youtube.)

I am an incandescent guy at heart. I sold my SF U2 because it just doesn't get any use. I am aware of newer LEDs than LuxV's and Cree XR-E's, but have yet to see one that can come to the color rendition of incandescents.

I currently run a SF 6P body with a Lumens Factory EO-9 bulb and 2 X IMR16340 cells. Short run time, but I back it up with the more efficient Surefire cree L1 and CR2 Ion.

Jason

I'm also curious; can I expect high CRI leds to solve the "grey light" problem outdoors with cool color temp leds?

If so, I have half a ton of lights that need upgrading...

No direct replacement as the reflector of the SF turboheads does not work well with LEDs. The existing "Tower Modules" do not have the punch the MN16 has.

However, there are LEDs that do throw a good beam quite far. If you want to stick with SF, look at the E2DL ... a mere 120 lumens, but the beam is a terrific thrower and it looks like more lumens.

Then there are the Malkoff drop-ins for the 6P et al. Those are said to be in excess of 200 lumens, and while I don't know the exact numbers, I can attest that they are bright and throw well.

And the icing on the cake ... the "warm white" dropins. It is called the M60W (Malkoff), puts out a bit less than the usual M60, but has a good color rendition.

If you are willing to change brand, than there is an abundance of cheaper lights using the Cree XR-E or Seoul P4 LED that are as bright as the Malkoff and seem to offer throw, but I can't comment any further about those as I don't have one.
An example would be the Fenix TK11, but there are many more.

The power up to about 200 lumens is there, as is the throw. Now the color rendition also gets better.

bernie

kongfuchicken said:

I'm also curious; can I expect high CRI leds to solve the "grey light" problem outdoors with cool color temp leds?

If so, I have half a ton of lights that need upgrading...

Click to expand...

This area is subjective, as some do not seem to report the "grey light" problem that others experience. Furthermore, those that do experience it also report varying degrees of improvement for the Cree neutral white bins such as the A and B series (5A is common) compared to a high CRI Seoul or Nichia high CRI LED.

I really like the high CRI Seoul, but it gives considerably less light for the power used and has a current limit of 800mA. The lower efficiency is due to the different phosphors used in this LED compared to most other LEDs. It also tends to produce beams with shifting tint from hotspot to corona. If you can live with no more than 100 lumens and the aforementioned characteristics, then it is a formidable replacement for incandescent lights of small size. IMO, it does a great job of eliminating the "grey light" problem.

Comparitavely, the Crees are quite a bit more efficient than the Seoul high CRI LEDs. They do not have high CRI like the Seoul or Nichia LEDs under discussion, but they do offer a noticable improvement over the cool white bins (even the warmest of them) when used in certain environments such as the outdoors. The drawback is less efficiency compared to the cool white bins, but the difference of about 15% is well worth the trade IMHO. The Cree will also produce more throw than either the high CRI Seoul or high CRI Nichia LEDs IMO. I still have not had enough experience with the Cree 5A LEDs to decide to what extent they address the "grey light" problem in terms of the confidence I have in my ability to accurately and easily perceive my surroundings such as when walking through woods. I can say that I appreciate the improved rendering of colors that would be present in the outdoors.

The Nichia high CRI LED uses an innovative phosphor blend that produces a light spectrum similar to that of sunlight, at least to a greater extent than any LED before. It's main limitations are the die configuration (6 dies over a fairly large area in LED terms), power handling ability (350mA), and low efficiency. It excels for use around the house or for close tasks, and just renders everything very 'naturally' compared to other LEDs.

The difference in these new LEDs is enough to make many converts. I will no longer buy a light using a cool white LED - with the exception of a Surefire Optimus. My lights now use Cree 5A (both XR-E and MC-E), Seoul 4000K CCT high CRI LEDs, or Nichia 083 high CRI LEDs. I also still enjoy various incandescent lights because these LEDs still cannot compete in the higher power classes. I suspect that will change with time, but for now I enjoy them for their efficiency, potentially excellent dependability (depending on component and build quality), ability to dim without yellowing, and no burned out bulbs.

a trick question?

Surefire 9P with P91 module runs for 14 mins in actual test, generating 200+ lumens. (20 mins ad runtime)

Malkoff M60 module in 9P runs for 2:30 hours, generating 230 lumens. PLUS more reliable PLUS (IMO) better tint.

Incan hit a dead-end, there is nothing exciting going on, SF is not developing new units but there is surely (pun intended) much development going on with LEDs.

Some members say that with those new high-discharge lithium rechargeables very high-powered incans in a small form factor will be possible ... and LED just can't produce the raw power of incan and HID yet, at least not in one emitter.
bernie


P.S.: the tint of the M60W is not bad, but it is not uniform and certainly not perfect IMHO. Only the Nichia 083 surpasses incan there IMHO, but it isn't really focussable and is relatively low in power.

kongfuchicken said:

I'm also curious; can I expect high CRI leds to solve the "grey light" problem outdoors with cool color temp leds?

If so, I have half a ton of lights that need upgrading...

Click to expand...

As mudman cj said this is indeed entirely subjective. Even the present crop of cool whites I find render colors more realistically to me than incan ever did. However, others disagree. Regardless, the issue of color rendering is being addressed, although unfortunately most of the focus seems to be improving warm and neutral whites. I've yet to see a cool white LED purposely designed for higher CRI. However, long term I'm sure it's coming. LED seeks to replace general lighting. Some of the present general lighting market is 5000K to 6500K high CRI fluorescent tubes. As a bonus, the efficiency penalty when making high CRI at high CCTs seems to be less than for lower CCTs.

Your question about the M3T vs DBS set me to thinking. I had not tried my M3T in about a year. I loaded it with fresh SF cells and threw a fresh 18650 in my DBS V2 R2. I tried them at 75 feet. There was just no contest. The DBS just blew away the SF M3T. The DBS smaller and brighter hot spot just carries and carries. At ranges beyond 100', the differences are even more dramatic. It kind of brought a tear to my eye, as I always loved my M3T. I still will keep it no matter what. There is no doubt, however, that lights like the DBS will carry the throw flag in the small lights department from now on.

Basically incans can go as bright as you want as long as you have the juice to power them. A single LED emitter only gets so bright before burning out. LED's big advantage is their efficiency of course.

I just ordered a 350 lumen incan bulb for my SF E2e and a 500 lumen bulb for my SF 6P. Thanks to the new IMR16340 cells they can now design bulbs that draw more current than was previously safe for 2 cells. The run time will have to be ridiculously short, but it's more for the shock and aw. 500 lumens coming out of a SF 6P will be something. However a properly driven MC-E module in a SF 6P should be able to generate 800-900 emitter lumens and out perform these new incan bulbs as far as raw lumen output.

As of now it would seem an incan flashlight needs to be larger than LED flashlights to get the same output or more. Take the Dereelight C2H which should have a good 200 or more out the front lumens. It's not much larger than a pair of CR123's. Are there any incans that can output 200 lumens at that size? My E2e should be able to match it or beat it with the new 350 lumen bulb, but at over twice the size and with two IMR16340's compared to the single IMR16340 in the C2H.

If size doesn't matter LED's can keep up with just about anything. If anyone has seen the Databank 70 you'd be amazed at what LED's can do. With 70 Cree XR-E's driven at around 1.8A each and an aspheric lens over each LED the Databank destroys HID's, incans, etc. I witnessed it beat out a 75-watt HID, a dual 55-watt HID, etc. However it's not the most practical thing to carry around, but maybe if it was mounted on a turret on a vehicle with a constant power supply it could be fairly useful.

StandardBattery said:

Well I'm waiting to see if they can release a warm/neutral tint version of the MCE.

Click to expand...

You mean like say a Cree MC-E 5A J Bin (320 lumen @350ma) on sale here?
:thumbsup:

Pydpiper said:

I came by for a visit to see what is new in the past few months, I see all these little lights that claim big throw. The Dereelight DBS is one that caught my eye, can this thing throw like my old faithful M3T?
So many new lights out there..

Click to expand...

Judging from some reviews, the Dereelight DBS v2 will out-throw the M3T but it must be remembered that it does this with a very narrow spill beam that won't do well for closer ranged tasks. The M3T's spill beam is actually rather wide at closer distances too and so it's a more well-rounded light.

funny what lights are compared here
ANYONE has EVER seen "normal" ppl with such lights, on night hikes and such?
(except from us?)

in the "main" market - thats 2 AA and possibly D-celled models - the led age has begun 1.5 years ago (= Cree revolution)

etc said:

Incan hit a dead-end, there is nothing exciting going on,

Click to expand...

I've got to disagree with you there, with these new IMR cells a lot of new possibilities are opening up, even with Led, now a P7 can be driven to full output off a single 16340. And as far as incan, I've just picked a light about the size of a 9p thats running a wa1185 at about 12v. It's very, very bright. There is a lot of potential in both areas. But it is my opinion that if you want to put up the big numbers incan is the way to go.:shrug:

While incan bulbs are pretty much at a dead end, battery tech is not. The big disadvantage of bright incans is runtime, and if recent breakthroughs in lithium ion technology pan out it will greatly offset that shortcoming. LED's will still last longer, and will have more customizable light spectrums etc, but incan isn't out yet