Heat cycling with Luxeons

LEDlightman

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I was just wondering if turning a luxeon so that it heats up and cools over and over again is good for it. If I let the thing get hot (but not beyond thermal limit, it never OVERheats) then let it cool, and repeat the process hundreds of times, would it dameage the diode,giving less light? I ask because this is what happens in frequently used flahslights.
 

Rothrandir

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one would assume heating and allowing to cool would be better than staying heated /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

Doug Owen

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[ QUOTE ]
Rothrandir said:
one would assume heating and allowing to cool would be better than staying heated /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, since many failure modes are based on mechanical stress heat *cycles* are often far worse WRT lifetime than the same peak temperature as a constant condition.

Note that 'storage temperatures' are often very high?

Overheating (even locally like on the die) is, of course, another matter.

Doug Owen
 

Rothrandir

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ususally that is a result of rapit blinking though right?

i usually use my ls lights for max 10secs a time, but a while in between bursts.
 

INRETECH

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The problem with heating/cooling in any product; is that the product is usually made up of different types of items and they have different expansion/contraction coeff. and when repeated heating/cooling occurs, something is going to "break"

Like when you should not touch a high-intensity lightbulb, for putting your fingerprints/oil on it wil cause it to shatter
 

LEDlightman

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Well, assuming that the die never overheats, so that sort of degredation is not a problem.
Doug, when you say "far worse" than keeping the temerature constant, just how worse is it? I use a my flashlight(s) for about 10-20 minutes at a time. Enough that they get hot, but not too hot. I do this about 2 times a day. Does that degrade the diode? I guess what I am asking is are we all slowly destroying our high powered LED flashlights by simply using them? Even if they have good heatsinks the diode still gets hot.
Mike (Inretech) Do you have any idea how bad the degredation would be in a Luxeon LED if brought to thermal limit then allowed to cool a few times a day? How long before they "break"?
 

rox

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this is a problem that lumileds had to solve when creating the luxeons. that is why the lens is hollow and filled with a gel to reduce the thermal expansion stresses on the wire. so i would say this problem is solved pretty well and wouldnt worry about heat cycling.
 

FalconFX

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If the testing was assumingly done with intermittent use inbetween pauses, then I'd see no reason why SF's guesstimates would vary wildly from their stated numbers. If their tests are continuous (in getting to 1000 hours), then I might see a reason why those numbers are understated.
 

Doug Owen

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How stuff dies......

[ QUOTE ]
LEDlightman said:

Doug, when you say "far worse" than keeping the temperature constant, just how worse is it?

I guess what I am asking is are we all slowly destroying our high powered LED flashlights by simply using them?

[/ QUOTE ]

The sorts of failures brought by the sorts of stresses heat cycling causes tend to be fatal rather than degrading. Things flat out die. About as 'worse' as it can get.

For instance, one of the common ways real world materials fail is through the movement of what's called dislocations. Entire layers of atoms simply slip over each other within the crystal. When you bend a tea spoon or paper clip, this is what you're doing. Forcing layers of atoms of iron to break free from each other (and yet remain firmly in place in the crystal WRT their neighbors) and slip past each other one row of atoms at a time. When you release the pressure, the process stops. Once again, the material is stable and has nearly identical properties to what it had before. Do this too many times, however, and the dislocations increasingly don't 'knit up' when they stop and the material breaks. Heat treating the material (i.e.. 'tempering it') can modify the situation by allowing very small amounts of other material mixed in the iron (typically carbon in steels) to migrate through the material and collect in small groups called participates. It's called participate hardening. Fun process where the carbon moves through the hot (but not yet molten) iron by changing places with the iron atom next to it. A solid state solution change. The longer we hold this 'anneal' temperature before 'quenching' (rapid cooling which 'freezes' the atoms in place) the smaller number of larger participates we have and the 'softer' the steel is. Chemically, in fact, there is no difference between the tea spoon and the knife next to it in the drawer.

Dislocations and their actions are a common failure mode in semi-conductors. Heat changes cause them to move through solid matter in waves. It's very commonly observed in what's called 'in situ' (Latin for 'in place') heating experiments done is electron microscopes like I work with. You can watch dislocations move through a material, often controlled by what's called pinning, running into precipitates which act to stop them like nails driven through the pages of a phone book. Grain boundaries (the atomic level change from one grain to another) can perform the same function. Just like the over worked tea spoon, the semi conductor crystal (i.e. the LED) can and does fail.

There are lots of other failure modes in semi conductors of course. Also quite common is 'migration' of contact materials through the crystal (again driven by heat). Some failure modes are actually self healing, at the proper temperatures they mend as fast (or even faster) than they fail..

Of course we're "slowly destroying our high powered LED flashlights by simply using them?". If we never lit them up, they'd last for ever, right? Used reasonably (within maker's ratings) they should last a very long time. Thousands of cycles over thousands of hours. For instance, Lumiled Application Note AB 07, "Lumen Maintenance of White Luxeon Power Light Sources", shows little degradation for thousands of hours *at specifications*. It also states that the lens/liquid scheme is to prevent yellowing, not for thermal stress reductions in bond wires as suggested.

We can see from the spec sheets that we can store (not drive) or use (drive) the part at same maximum temperature limited by *the package*, not the die (which will run 15 or more degrees C hotter). No penalty for (within spec) heat. Cycles are another matter.

So, IMO, keep it between the ditches (run it at or under specs), and it should outlive you. Abuse the part, and you're on your own. And, yes, it's also my opinion that the far lower lifetime of the 5 Watt unit is heat related. Localized stresses not as extreme in the 1 Watt unit. Consider that the dies (and the process to make them) are essentially identical, it's the application that's different.

Cycles are a funny thing WRT reliability. You can fly a 737 nearly for ever, but as we've found pressurize and depressurize the cabin (like you do on each flight) something between 30 and 40,000 times and even a 'fairly new' plane will unexpectedly fall apart in flight. Without warning, just like the one in Hawaii did some years back when the top flew off in flight. "Maintain the even strain" as the saying goes.

Doug Owen
 

PhotonBoy

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Re: How stuff dies......

It was a true pleasure to read your lucid explanation... really appreciated.

The LEDs used for communications in fiber optics are modulated at very high frequencies, in the MHz and GHz ranges. What do you think is the maximum frequency that a Luxeon might be modulated? For example, would it be possible to modulate a Luxeon at voice frequencies without destroying it?

In both cases, I think the modulation is applied by simply turning the LED on and off very rapidly.
 

Doug Owen

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Makin\' \'em flash

Thanks for the kind words, it's nice to know someone is reading and profiting (or otherwise) enjoying the effort.

Yes, I'm sure we can modulate Luxeons without hurting them, but to what frequency is an interesting point. Understand that for some modulation schemes it's not necessary to shut the LED off completely (or drive to full output), which makes the task far easier. You need to detect it, of course, and this places some constraints on the detector as well. Many photocells are out (too slow in response), but there are plenty of photo transistors and PIN diodes (like are used in remote controls) available, some even at Radio Shack.....

The biggest problem I can see is shut off. We need to 'discharge' the effective capacitance of the junction, and this needs to be done through the bond wire and resident paths in the die, all of which are optimized for other reasons (since the maker intends DC), inductance will be a bigger issue than the small (about an ohm) DC resistance involved. This is similar to the 'sweeping the base charge' problem with saturated transistor switching. Still, and interesting idea, one I plan to fiddle with when I get a chance. I should think that audio frequencies are 'doable'.

What's your reason for wanting to do this?

Doug Owen
 

DSpeck

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Re: Makin\' \'em flash

I read your explanation above, Doug, and onl y have a minor nitpick. It's not "participation" hardening, it's "preciptation" hardening, I believe. 17-4 stainless steel does this, for example.

Just a nitpick... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

Doug Owen

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Re: Makin\' \'em flash

[ QUOTE ]
DSpeck said:
I read your explanation above, Doug, and onl y have a minor nitpick. It's not "participation" hardening, it's "preciptation" hardening, I believe. 17-4 stainless steel does this, for example.

Just a nitpick... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Absolutely right.....hey, it got through spell check.....

Right in general about the properties of 'heat treated' (or treatable) metal alloys, their properties are controlled by preciptates (spelled any way you'd like).

In our small world, I once worked with 17-7 PH making springs for plastic ski boots (of all things). Nasty stuff to work with, impossible after the final anneal. Glad I don't do that sort of stuff any more.....

Thanks for the correction.

Doug Owen
 
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