Surefire disappointment

ambientmind · Jan 9, 2009

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but here goes...
I've been into flashlights for quite some time now, mostly modding the lights I get to turn them into the flashlights I like. Almost all of my lights have new drivers and or LEDs. I've recently began collecting Surefire Led heads to sample their usefulness and light quality, and I must say I'm disappointed. I must add, I love the surefire bodies, design, durability, warranty, and lego abilities of their lights. Their incans are great, I have and M3T and I love it. But their LED heads are just terrible. I have 3 P60L dropins that have nasty tints, and their output leaves much to be desired. I hated them so much, that I hacked one apart (no easy task) just to swap the emitter for something a little more pleasing. Those are the cheapest Surefire conversions, at $49 a piece. For a little more, you can get a Malkoff that will blow away the P60L in both output, color and runtime. And there are many many options within the Malkoff line. That takes my to my next purchase, the KL3-BK-WH. At $89, I expected more. The output was very low, and it was so blue it may as well been a cyan emitter. So again, out came the heat gun, soldering iron, and a nice U2SVOH to go in there. That brings me to today, in the mail came my brand new ($109) KX2 head ready to go. Excitedly I put it on an E2DL body and fired it up. And guess what. Purple. Purple everywhere with an off-center emitter. This time, the output was a little better, given the use of Cree LEDs, but not impressive. So now, I'm off to the Shoppe to look at a new driver and find an LED that will be nicer than what it has. Oh, and the stock emitter only has 3 bond wires, nice. So whats the deal? For the premium that Surefire charges, I'd think there would be a little more to these heads especially given the hold they have on the market and the resources they have available to them. To compare, I also have a TLS E-series head that is amazingly bright, nicely tinted and extremely durable, all for less than I paid for the KL3. Then I also have an Aleph 19mm head that has a great beam, great tint and lots of output for about the same as the KX2. So am I alone here? Is anyone else thinking the same way? I'm not here to bash on Surefire, they do make nice products and I'll continue to buy them. But as far as their LED lineup is concerned, I feel they have missed the mark comletely.

Edit:
See, its 12:30 now and I just bought a KL1 head and and E1B tailcap. Ha ha ha, it'll never stop.

Jackal112203 · Jan 9, 2009

You should send in the KX2 head to surefire. When I bought an E1L i had a similar problem. The color was nasty, but more importantly the hotspot was not centered at all. But Surefire made it right, within a month i had my light back, perfectly centered and the tint was MUCH better. Wouldn't hurt to try. Other than that, sorry for your bad experiences so far.:mecry:

ambientmind · Jan 9, 2009

Jackal112203 said:
You should send in the KX2 head to surefire. When I bought an E1L i had a similar problem. The color was nasty, but more importantly the hotspot was not centered at all. But Surefire made it right, within a month i had my light back, perfectly centered and the tint was MUCH better. Wouldn't hurt to try. Other than that, sorry for your bad experiences so far.:mecry:

I'm glad that they took care of you and fixed your problem. I know some people report having nice tints and well centered emitter, but its just such a lottery with them, you never know what you'll get. I've never heard of anyone complaining about their Malkoff or needing to send it back to get a centered emitter or better tint...

Bruce B · Jan 9, 2009

I got lucky in the Surefire P60L lotto! The P60L in the G2LED I own is dead centered, has a pure white tint with no bluing, and it throws surprisingly well!

nohcho · Jan 9, 2009

You not gonna notice the offcenterness in P60L cause it has a textured refelector. But i agree With OP 100% on all points. Hopefully Surefirewill catchup with technology on 09.

Monocrom · Jan 9, 2009

You're not alone. I don't agree with everything you said. But Gene's M60 is indeed a better quality product than Surefire's P60L. I bought a used TLS Q5 LED head from another CPFer. It's a quality product. Gave my Surefire E2E new life. Liked it so much, I bought another one. This time, a brand new one from Optics HQ. Even with the increased price of buying new, it's still less expensive than a Surefire KX2C head.

Sgt. LED · Jan 9, 2009

The LED heads from Surefire are good for modding if you can get them open, other than that there's no reason to get them.

Flight_Deck · Jan 9, 2009

I'm in complete agreement as well. Surefire makes some great lights, and two years ago I had a dozen surefire products in my arsenal. Today I've got zero.

I live out in the country on a good size piece of land by residential standards, and I rate my lights by performance out in the wide open. I only ever keep the very best light I can find for each purpose (throw, flood, variable beam, multilevel, size, combinations of features, EDC, etc.), and I buy pretty much everything so that I can put lights side-by-side for my comparison out in the field. I then sell the losers. Surefire hasn't won a battle on my land for a long, long time.

Given the speed at which companies like Fenix, Tiablo, Dereelight, and Regalight (to name a few), have cranked out new products, and the ever increasing quality of them, Surefire can't, shall we say, hold a candle to them.

And I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I'm sick and tired of waiting, and waiting, and waiting for Surefire to come out with their various new products that seem to always hit the market 6 months to a year later than when they originally announced.

Now (moderators), I'm not bashing Surefire either, but I'm very disappointed at their apparent inability to keep up with the market. Yes I know they've got all the business they need and all that, but they sure as heck don't do it for me anymore. We'll see if that's still the case when they come out with the Optimus and Invictus, but I'm tired of holding me breath for them.

cruisemissile · Jan 9, 2009

Sgt. LED said:
The LED heads from Surefire are good for modding if you can get them open, other than that there's no reason to get them.

I have a KL1 lying around, know of any good mods for it?
I am not comfortaable cracking it open myself, nor do I have machinery.
I also have a KL4 that I like, and wouldn't mind improving if there are any modders you can recommend.

Lightingguy321 · Jan 9, 2009

Milkyspit can mod it with a Cree, Seoul, or K2 TFFC for a modest charge. (he will also swap the TIR out for a reflector for either flood or throw)

Carpenter · Jan 9, 2009

Ok, my $0.02 and I'm gone. :poof:

While I agree that the P60L is probably the worse thing ever from a flashaholic stance, you have to remember...

The people who frequent this and other flashlight forums are a very few percentage points (if even that much) of SureFire's market base. SF as well as every other company is going to listen to the people/companies that make them profitable. If, say the US Army, wants a light that is dim to a flashoholic, but perfect for a specific job, like attached to a rifle that is going to be used for clearing a house that may have hostiles in it, then that is what they are going to do.

I 100% agree that the P60L is the worse thing I have ever seen. I've replaced both of mine with a P60 and a DX drop-in. In fact I refuse to sell mine on the Marketplace just because they are not want people on this forum want.

If you want a LED light that is going to allow you to light up your shed that is 100 yards away from your house, then don't buy a P60L. Maybe buy a 6P body and add the Malkoff. Or talk to Milky :thumbsup:

As I have heard several times from people with in's at SF, there are so many lights that never came to market because they would not have been able to make a profit off of them since they were more for flashoholics than their customer base.

I would really enjoy pk starting a thread here and asking us what we would like to see in a light. This will never happen however, since we are all individuals with our own opinions and there is no way we could come to a consensus as well as purchase enough product to warrant a production run. When SureFire creates a new light, they already have a target audience for it. I have yet to see a light in their catalog or web site that is for a flashoholic. :nana:

Ok, I've rambled enough. Back to lurking.

270winchester · Jan 9, 2009

huh, put me in the minority of people that like the P60L. It's not the brightest thing around but I have found it to be really good for general tasks, like walking, working on cars, etc. I have plenty of other higher-output lights that a simple moderate output light with no stages to fuss over is nice.

Remember that for the general market, a CPF-special might not be the best choice, not everyone needs a needle-beamed plunger shaped light that blinds you when used for close-up work. WHen I toss my G2L the user can easily figure out how to use it in 2 seconds and I don't have to worry about telling them to press button for x seconds and wait for y seconds for the next level, and for the most basic lights it shouldn't be overly complicated or dazzling. If it works, it works.

(and give me another example of a 39 dollar module that has thermal protection)

HKJ · Jan 9, 2009

Carpenter;2779043 While I agree that the P60L is probably the worse thing ever from a flashaholic stance said:
I do not understand that.
I have a G2 with P60L and it works fine. The P60L has white light and thermal protection (Not many led have that), it might not be the latest generation led, but it is still better than incan (At least for some things).

yazkaz · Jan 9, 2009

I too am getting doubtful with the quality of certain SF parts.
Just two days ago I was at my official SF dealer asking for a new Z58 switch, and was told new stock just came in. Was shocked to find that the entire internal switch assembly has changed. It's completely unlike any older stock switch with X tabs etc. The shiny metal plate inside the switch is gone, and I see a white plastic plate (Delrin?) with three copper contacts. The spring's design has also been changed, the coil diameter is larger, but I suspect the metal is of lower quality. Also, the price of the new switch is cheaper by a few bucks. I ended up getting an older stock Z58 from another dealer (the very last one from the shop, w/four tabs I believe) for a few bucks more.

Well I hope SF won't do the same to the SW02......

Size15's · Jan 9, 2009

yazkaz said:
I too am getting doubtful with the quality of certain SF parts.
Just two days ago I was at my official SF dealer asking for a new Z58 switch, and was told new stock just came in. Was shocked to find that the entire internal switch assembly has changed. It's completely unlike any older stock switch with X tabs etc. The shiny metal plate inside the switch is gone, and I see a white plastic plate (Delrin?) with three copper contacts. The spring's design has also been changed, the coil diameter is larger, but I suspect the metal is of lower quality. Also, the price of the new switch is cheaper by a few bucks. I ended up getting an older stock Z58 from another dealer (the very last one from the shop, w/four tabs I believe) for a few bucks more.

Well I hope SF won't do the same to the SW02......

Can you share photos?
It sounds like the current version - the one that SureFire has been working towards - the design that people aren't complaining about experiencing problems with!

Al

yazkaz · Jan 9, 2009

Size15's said:
Can you share photos?
It sounds like the current version - the one that SureFire has been working towards - the design that people aren't complaining about experiencing problems with!

Sorry, can't take photos in my dealership anyway.
I've tried my best to give the description as accurate as possible.

So what kind of problems are people experiencing with the older stock switch? Switch mecha gets stuck or what? Inability to deal with high-current setups etc.?

I tried my new Z58 with 20+ consecutive clicks -- twice -- without a problem.

Jarl · Jan 9, 2009

270winchester said:
(and give me another example of a 39 dollar module that has thermal protection)

MagLED.

Kestrel · Jan 9, 2009

Although the P60L sure isn't anything special, I have recommended a G2L to friends as an entry-level performance light. I purchased two for others last year, $49 for the G2L vs $35 for a G2 at the time, they have a more usable flashlight for the extra $14 ea. No, they are not Malkoff's, but the G2 hosts that they are getting are good quality entry level lights (backed by a good warranty), IMO. My 1.5 cents.

(I am not wanting to sidetrack the conversation into G2 fit&finish issues, that is currently running in another thread. I only mention it because I think that the pair [G2 + P60L] make a good entry-level flashlight.)

ambientmind · Jan 10, 2009

I agree that the P60L in theory has a great idea behind it-moderate output, nice beam and long-ish runtime. But where it falls short is consistency. All three of mine had different blue/white tints and slightly different outputs. So why the lack of consistency? Can't they specify a certain bin that they want to use? I mean a lot of manufacturers do this, at least keeping it to one bin. Then there's the heat issue. Sure it has thermal management, but thats because it pretty much has to. Look at how little of the drop in actually contacts the flashlights body. Obviously in a G2 it wouldnt matter otherwise, but in any aluminum body variant, it would make a huge difference if the heat transfer to the flashlights body were improved. Thats the best they could do? They basically took a P60 reflector and dropped an LED in it with no concern for heat build up so they had to put a throttle on the driver. Big deal. But what say you with the KL1s, KX1s, KX2s, KX2Cs, KL3s, KL4s, KL5s, KL5As etc? Would you really buy another one? I know not everyone wants a ray gun coming out of their flashlight, but some modern technology and something that would make everyone say wow would be nice.

deranged_coder · Jan 10, 2009

ambientmind said:
I agree that the P60L in theory has a great idea behind it-moderate output, nice beam and long-ish runtime. But where it falls short is consistency. All three of mine had different blue/white tints and slightly different outputs. So why the lack of consistency? Can't they specify a certain bin that they want to use? I mean a lot of manufacturers do this, at least keeping it to one bin.

I am curious how many of Surefire's customers outside of CPF members (who, I expect, make up a very small minority of their customer base) actually compare beams and get upset if their lamp assembly is bluer or whiter or slightly brighter or slightly dimmer than someone else's lamp assembly? I guess I am curious as to whether or not sticking to one bin and maintaining better consistency with tints is worth the effort for them. Sticking to just one bin might improve consistency but would probably (and this is purely speculation on my part) drive up production costs. Just look at how the "guaranteed tint" versions of lights such as the HDS lights cost more. For a CPF member, the trade off might be worth it. But I would suspect that the vast majority of their customers would disagree and would prefer to take the variances in tints over higher production cost. One could subsequently argue that Surefire should offer a "guaranteed tint" version of their lights / lamp assemblies but again, would it be cost effective for them to invest in something like that?

ambientmind said:
Then there's the heat issue. Sure it has thermal management, but thats because it pretty much has to. Look at how little of the drop in actually contacts the flashlights body. Obviously in a G2 it wouldnt matter otherwise, but in any aluminum body variant, it would make a huge difference if the heat transfer to the flashlights body were improved. Thats the best they could do? They basically took a P60 reflector and dropped an LED in it with no concern for heat build up so they had to put a throttle on the driver. Big deal.

I would guess that if they did a lamp assembly that worked in their aluminum bodied flashlights but would not work with their Nitrolon bodied lights due to heat sinking issues, I would wager their customer base would be thinking, "Gee, those guys at Surefire are such morons. Why could they not engineer a LED drop in lamp assembly that would work for all of their lights like the P60/P61 and P90/P91 lamps?"

ambientmind said:
But what say you with the KL1s, KX1s, KX2s, KX2Cs, KL3s, KL4s, KL5s, KL5As etc? Would you really buy another one? I know not everyone wants a ray gun coming out of their flashlight, but some modern technology and something that would make everyone say wow would be nice.

I do not think there is a way they can please everyone because someone will always find something to complain about. :shrug:

Getting back to the original question, as far as my own opinion of Surefire's current LED lineup goes, I absolutely love the beams of my E2DL and E1B. :thumbsup:

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