which manufacturers overrate their lumens?

I am curios what you knowledgeable flashaholics believe as far as which makes of lights are known to be full of crap when they advertise their high lumen count?

I think everyone except surefire? Surefire states torch lumens ie, the light actually comming out of the torchlight while other manufacturers (that are honest in a different way) states bulb lumens which is the actual amount of light produced by the bulb/LED which, would be higher than torch lumens due to reflector losses.
You also have the bull&hit manufacturers who just gives you numbers because they sound good...

I do not know who overrate their lumens, but I known where your can find some measured lumens: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/211402

Complete crap? Umm, eBayers yes. Many of the budget companies don't seem to show lumen ratings. Better companies might show bulb lumen, which can be 20-35% less after you include optical looses.

I think Novatac, RA lights, Pelican, Streamlight, Some Fenix lights(Looking at the tested lumen figures vs stated), and a few more state out the front lumen.

Surefire don't over rate their lumens, but runtimes may be another story. Check out the 120lumens/2hours for the L4 and 80lumens/11hours for the 6PL.

Also Streamlight and Inova give pretty accurate lumen ratings without going overboard.

A sh!tload of threads here have almost this exact topic.

Gunner12 said:

Complete crap? Umm, eBayers yes. Many of the budget companies don't seem to show lumen ratings. Better companies might show bulb lumen, which can be 20-35% less after you include optical looses.

I think Novatac, RA lights, Pelican, Streamlight, Some Fenix lights(Looking at the tested lumen figures vs stated), and a few more state out the front lumen.

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I am aware about this, but don't understand it. Even a single uncoated glass has only around 5% light loss, and a high reflection mirror only a single% or so. Where does the rest of the light disappear?
A high quality binocular can have more than 90% light transmission, and that with several lenses and prisms. The light losses of a flashlight (1 mirror and 1 glass) ought to be much less than a binocular.

Regards, Patric

Swedpat said:

I am aware about this, but don't understand it. Even a single uncoated glass has only around 5% light loss, and a high reflection mirror only a single% or so. Where does the rest of the light disappear?
A high quality binocular can have more than 90% light transmission, and that with several lenses and prisms. The light losses of a flashlight (1 mirror and 1 glass) ought to be much less than a binocular.

Regards, Patric

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Good point Patric... I never thought of it that way.

Well, I may not know why it's much less like you asked, but you can sure do your own math to verify it.

First, go to this link...
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/211402

Then check out what the manufacturer states the lumen output to be on their website.

Finally, do the division to figure out the percentage lost and/or transmitted.

I had only about 11% actually transmitted out the end of the flashlight before I noticed my thumb was over the lens!

Seriously though, in the days of 200+ lumen lights, I think we would all do better to not nit pick on plus/minus 10 or 20 lumens when picking a light. This is like deciding what high-end digital camera to buy based on the difference of a couple megapixels higher or lower... there are many other more important factors to consider in a good camera (read: light).

There are numerous threads on who states OTF lumens. There are also a number of companies who state emitter lumens, which IMO is not really over rating, just rating differently. Most companies tend to fall under one of these two categories (mostly the second)

There are then companies who pull numbers out of their arse with no rhyme or reason, or choose "peak lumens" which the light only attains for a grand total of maybe 5 minutes. eBay sellers and LedLenser come to mind

Marduke said:

There are then companies who pull numbers out of their arse with no rhyme or reason, or choose "peak lumens" which the light only attains for a grand total of maybe 5 minutes. eBay sellers and LedLenser come to mind

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I didn't know that about LED Lenser. I have a P14 rated 167 Lumens IIRC and I think that light is every bit of that. Best throwing light I have also. Of course I have no way of officially measuring it.

btw: Glad your back.

Bill

Bill,

Isn't the brightness of 167 (actually they state 172 lumens on their website and 167 is the number for the P7) lumens with 1,5V alkalines and only available the very first part of the runtime? I have thought about it because LedLenser don't recommend 1,2V NiMh cells and I have not read that they are regulated. If they are not the brightness will fast drop instantly from the beginning. Then NiMh cells provide a much more even output during the runtime, but will not provide the same beginning brightness.

Regards, patric

Swedpat said:

I am aware about this, but don't understand it. Even a single uncoated glass has only around 5% light loss, and a high reflection mirror only a single% or so. Where does the rest of the light disappear?
A high quality binocular can have more than 90% light transmission, and that with several lenses and prisms. The light losses of a flashlight (1 mirror and 1 glass) ought to be much less than a binocular.

Regards, Patric

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Because cheap systems have inferior components that are lossy. High quality systems have superior components that aren't lossy.

Gunner12 said:

Complete crap? Umm, eBayers yes. Many of the budget companies don't seem to show lumen ratings. Better companies might show bulb lumen, which can be 20-35% less after you include optical looses.

I think Novatac, RA lights, Pelican, Streamlight, Some Fenix lights(Looking at the tested lumen figures vs stated), and a few more state out the front lumen.

Click to expand...

Some good companies don't quote lumens. LiteFlux, for example, doesn't.
I am not sure why they don't, since lumens are the numbers that sell flashlights to many people. It could be, because LiteFlux seems to focus its attention of the quality of the beam, rather than the quantity of the lumens, they would prefer not to get into a lumen battle with numbers that don't tell a fair story about the quality of their lights.

In most cases, small number diffences in lumens makes no practical difference in acutal usage conditions. Yet people insist think they will notice a difference between 200 and 225 lumens, enough to let those small diffences influence their purchase decisions.

Many of the smaller flashlight companies, some of which make very good flashlights, don't have the budget to afford an IS, or may not have the means to have their lights tested in someone else's IS. So quoting out the front lumens maybe impossible for them to do, so if they quote anything it maybe emitter lumens, current to the emitter, etc.

I'd rather just know the specifics of the emitter and the current being sent to it. Then based on the type of reflector, optic, I can get a good idea of what to expect.

What annoys me more is when companies aren't specific about the emitter they use, the current they send to it, etc. Surefire may say 65 lumens, 120 lumens, etc, but they won't give specifics about the emitter used, the bin, etc. I'd rather buy a light from a manufacturer who tells me it's a Cree XR-E R2 WC driven at 1A, etc. It's like buying a sports car and the dealer won't tell you what kind of horse power the engine produces, how many cylinders it has, etc. They just tell you it has an engine, and it does 0-60 in 5 seconds.

As far as the lights I've purchased, the only one that clearly was way off was the Tiablo A1 which claimed 110 lumens, and 180 emitter lumens. It only produces around 40 lumens out the front. Considering the output you couldn't even say it produces 110 emitter lumens.

I know some companies have started having their lights tested in an IS so they can quote out the front lumens, so we shouldn't be too hard on those companies that have made the effort to improve their specs just because their past specs may have been inflated, or confusing.

I believe Fenix is now doing this, as well as Zebralight and Nitecore.