m60w on single 17670

Mudd Magnet · Jan 18, 2009

I just got my new surefire g2l and can't wait to put in a led module. I have settled on the malkoff m60 warm seeing the beamshots has made up my mind. But I want to run it off of a aw 17670 cell mainly for the longer run time and less hassle then rcr123's. My problem is I still want to be able to throw two cr123's in if needed for backups (rules out the m30) Will this work out ok What can I expect from it while runing the aw cell in terms of light output runtime ect? I would imagine more then the stock lamp but how much more? I know on two cr123's It will run at it's full potential so I can always use them if I need a brighter light. I hope this will work out and give me more light the the stock p60 hopefull a bit more throw too. If not I guess I will be buying a bunch of rcr123 cells to power it up Thanks

And I have been searching for about 2 hours now have yet to find something concrete

I am also looking for a smallish single cell cr123 light to burn my old cells in. I want around 10-15 lumens floody beam to be used whilst walking around the house or walking in the woods at night with dark adapted eyes. I know my ipod is just right for this and runs with light on/music playing for about 3 hours haha long storie but something comparably bright would be nice Thanks ya'll

Niconical · Jan 18, 2009

A while back I did some 17670 tests with a M60 and M60L.

Not scientific light meter readings, just me in a dark room watching for any lowering in output.

The M60 went at least an hour and the M60L at least 3 hours.

I say "at least" because I didn't run it until I noticed lower output, I just kept going until what I thought was a runtime I would be happy with and which put no stress on the battery. Maybe they'll go longer, but I stopped at 1 hour/3hours and considered that my "safe" runtime for the M60/M60L.

Armed_Forces · Jan 18, 2009

You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Running an M60 off a single cell is a total waste because it will just be in direct drive (you're paying the big bucks for the regulation) and you will have much lower output. You need an M30 for a single cell. Choose your batteries and then get the module that fits. Of course you could just get them both and be done with it. seriously.

"I am also looking for a smallish single cell cr123 light to burn my old cells in. I want around 10-15 lumens floody beam to be used whilst walking around the house or walking in the woods at night with dark adapted eyes."

Zebralight H30.

Don't let the fact that this is a headlight scare you off, it's eminently usable without being mounted in the carrier. Check out the belt clip and it stands up by itself. One of the most useful lights I have ever owned.

cfromc · Jan 18, 2009

Armed_Forces said:
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Running an M60 off a single cell is a total waste because it will just be in direct drive (you're paying the big bucks for the regulation) and you will have much lower output. You need an M30 for a single cell. Choose your batteries and then get the module that fits. Of course you could just get them both and be done with it. seriously.

The OP mentioned that he wants to be able to run 2 CR123a at times or as a backup so I don't think the M60W is a waste of time, I think its probably the best compromise since the M30 won't run off of 6V. My understanding from reading previous posts from Gene and others is that the M60 will run at or near its intended brightness until is goes under 3.7V. If the 17670 cell can maintain its voltage for most of the runtime (which it should) then the M60 should be pretty bright until the cell is nearing depletion. I have no direct experimentation with that since I've never run a Malkoff M60 with one L-ion but it makes sense if the M60 is regulated from 3.7V-9V. Even if it runs a slow decline from 235 lumens to ~170 that is still pretty bright.

MarNav1 · Jan 18, 2009

My M60 and M60L both work great on a 17670 0r a 18650. Is it ideal? Maybe not but as long as you can keep track of your cells voltage I don't see a problem with it. I would say 1 to 1.5 hours and then recharge the cell. I'm going to test this out just for kicks.

Mikellen · Jan 18, 2009

I would like to operate a Malkoff M60W or M60WL with a Surefire 6P. I would like to to be able to use 2 CR123A batteries but have the option to use a rechargeable battery. I was considering on the 18650 battery size but realize it probably won't fit inside the stock Surefire body. So my question is would the 17670 battery fit inside the Surefire body? If it does is this a simpler and or better option than using an 18650 battery and either purchasing a bored out Surefire 6P body or a Leef or FiveMega body?

Would utilizing a Malkoff M30W and a 17670 battery or 1 CR123A battery with a dummy cell be a good option for the Surefire G2L or 6P?

I hope the OP doesn't mind me asking this question on his thread and apologize in advance if this was an inappropriate place to post this question.
Thank you.

kongfuchicken · Jan 18, 2009

Mikellen said:
I would like to operate a Malkoff M60W or M60WL with a Surefire 6P. I would like to to be able to use 2 CR123A batteries but have the option to use a rechargeable battery. I was considering on the 18650 battery size but realize it probably won't fit inside the stock Surefire body. So my question is would the 17670 battery fit inside the Surefire body? If it does is this a simpler and or better option than using an 18650 battery and either purchasing a bored out Surefire 6P body or a Leef or FiveMega body?

Would utilizing a Malkoff M30W and a 17670 battery or 1 CR123A battery with a dummy cell be a good option for the Surefire G2L or 6P?

I hope the OP doesn't mind me asking this question on his thread and apologize in advance if this was an inappropriate place to post this question.
Thank you.

The question is which do you value more, brightness when using rechargeables or runtime when using primaries?

Mudd Magnet · Jan 18, 2009

Thats a good place to post you're question as it is very similar to mine

I can tell you that the 18650 won't fit you're light unless you bore it out (1.5mm bigger I think) The 17670 cells should fit right in nice and snug. I had also thought about using the m30 and using one cr123 cell and a spacer but I think it would be a bit of a hassle to have to carry the extra dead spacer cell around all the time. and the decrease in runtime you'll have to change the cell out pretty quick. The main difference to the 18650 vs 17670 vs rcr123's is the power they store, 18650 is something like 2600 mah 17670 around 1700 mah while the rcr 123 cells come in around 750 mah x2 = 1300 mah 300 less then the 17670 and 1300 les the the 18650 most cr123 primarys are between 1300-1500 mah hope that helps you a bit.

Thanks for the ideas guy's I also thought it would run in regulation for the begining then taper off. MARNAV1 or Niconical would you guy's say the light tapers in such a way that it is very noticable when the cell is getting low? noticable enough to stop before damaging a un protected cell? I don't use the light for long periods of time alot so the battries most likly wont see more the 45 minutes before a recharge more likly 20-30 between charges. Just wondering what will happen if pushing the runtime longer say I get behind on a hike and end up 2 hours away in the dark? I know at some point I'll have to change cells it's just if the when is noticable enough to be safe using unprotected cells. Thanks alot Dave

Armed_Forces That headlight looks nice Thanks for the link. Also I don't see me paying big bucks for some regulation circuit although it is part of it. I am paying for the quality of the product I have not read once here about one of genes la's failing and still see his original handmade la's in use or for sale for $40+ seems like a ok investment to me

Kestrel · Jan 18, 2009

Armed_Forces said:
Running an M60 off a single cell is a total waste because it will just be in direct drive (you're paying the big bucks for the regulation) and you will have much lower output.

I disagree, there are many posts here where folks have had very good results using a single 17670 cell for the M60. Output equal / nearly equal to the M60 for over an hour, then gradually declining output for 1-2 hours. It's actually very efficient since the buck converter basically doesn't have to work at all. And you don't have the abrupt cut-off when the protection circuits go, plenty of warning by the light dimming as the cell nears depletion.

MarNav1 · Jan 18, 2009

Mudd Magnet said:
Thats a good place to post you're question as it is very similar to mine I can tell you that the 18650 won't fit you're light unless you bore it out (1.5mm bigger I think) The 17670 cells should fit right in nice and snug. I had also thought about using the m30 and using one cr123 cell and a spacer but I think it would be a bit of a hassle to have to carry the extra dead spacer cell around all the time. and the decrease in runtime you'll have to change the cell out pretty quick. The main difference to the 18650 vs 17670 vs rcr123's is the power they store, 18650 is something like 2600 mah 17670 around 1700 mah while the rcr 123 cells come in around 750 mah x2 = 1300 mah 300 less then the 17670 and 1300 les the the 18650 most cr123 primarys are between 1300-1500 mah hope that helps you a bit.

Thanks for the ideas guy's I also thought it would run in regulation for the begining then taper off. MARNAV1 or Niconical would you guy's say the light tapers in such a way that it is very noticable when the cell is getting low? noticable enough to stop before damaging a un protected cell? I don't use the light for long periods of time alot so the battries most likly wont see more the 45 minutes before a recharge more likly 20-30 between charges. Just wondering what will happen if pushing the runtime longer say I get behind on a hike and end up 2 hours away in the dark? I know at some point I'll have to change cells it's just if the when is noticable enough to be safe using unprotected cells. Thanks alot Dave

Armed_Forces That headlight looks nice Thanks for the link. Also I don't see me paying big bucks for some regulation circuit although it is part of it. I am paying for the quality of the product I have not read once here about one of genes la's failing and still see his original handmade la's in use or for sale for $40+ seems like a ok investment to me

I have run mine for 30 minutes at a pop and it didn't dim at all. But I should do a runtime test since I'm using an unprotected cell, don't want to damage a cell. But I would think it should last 1 1/2 to 2 hours or so. :ohgeez:

Armed_Forces · Jan 18, 2009

Hey guys, I should have proof read that a little better.

I just shot from the hip based on what Gene had told me when I was going through this whole Malkoff thang 4 or 5? months ago. I hope I haven't gotten it wrong. Since I'm thinking about it better I would wonder if the efficiency of the driver is very poor so close to the cut-off regulation voltage?? this would hurt your runtime and possibly the brightness? And can anyone comment on how much voltage sag a module like Gene's produces? It seems people just think of the resting state of cells and forget that they sag when a load is put on them. Once again, when you are so close to the cut-off point between running regulated vs. direct drive you would really seem to be wasting the whole point of running a module like an M60 on a single lithium cell. I understand wanting the flexibility but I think I would just choose the multiple cell solution because then you would be assured of running within spec. To me, the regulation of the emitter is a huge part of what I'm paying for, but maybe since we are so close to the Vf of the emitter it really doesn't make a huge difference??? :thinking: I was pleasantly surprised when I got my M30, I had never seen that kind of output off a single cell before!

Hopefully one of our experts will chime in on this to help set the record straight or clear up anything said in error.

prof student · Jan 18, 2009

Kestrel said:
I disagree, there are many posts here where folks have had very good results using a single 17670 cell for the M60. Output equal / nearly equal to the M60 for over an hour, then gradually declining output for 1-2 hours. It's actually very efficient since the buck converter basically doesn't have to work at all. And you don't have the abrupt cut-off when the protection circuits go, plenty of warning by the light dimming as the cell nears depletion.

So, what KIND of runtime can one expect if you use an M60 & an 18650? B/C it is a single cell, will it not reach the 225 lumens? Or it will but will very quickly start to dim? (the 18650 I would be using would be a protected Li-ion) I have the 6P body bored out, but.....if its going to be horrible output & runtime, then I guess I will have to stock up on CR123s.

Mikellen · Jan 18, 2009

If anyone can answer prof student's question in the above post can they also answer it with the use of a 17670 protected cell?

Edit: I just saw Kestrel's post which answered my question. (But can anyone confirm those results with a 17670)?

Sorry.

Bullzeyebill · Jan 18, 2009

As posted earlier by Niconical, the M60 and M60L has been run with good success using one 17670. Your milage may vary trying that as each LED is a little different vf wise, or at least can be different. Using the 17670, or a 18650 (18670 actually with protection circuit) can be a good backup option, but not for the primary use of light, I would think. Just me, but I have drop-ins that run a 9+ volts, and I have lights that run with one Li-Ion. The M30 is the compleat drop-in, being able to be run on any size cell, almost, even one AA NiMh, and can run on two matched CR123's if the voltage is below 6 volts combined.

Bill

curtispdx · Jan 18, 2009

How about an M30 with a CR123 dummy and a regular RCR123? Or a Dereelight drop-in with a voltage range of 3~16V?

gsnorm · Jan 19, 2009

Mikellen said:
If anyone can answer prof student's question in the above post can they also answer it with the use of a 17670 protected cell?

Edit: I just saw Kestrel's post which answered my question. (But can anyone confirm those results with a 17670)?

Sorry.

Some runtime tests I did awhile back resulted in the M60 + AW 17670 protected cell running for approx. one hour of regulated output (cell above 3.8 volts) followed by two hours of slowly declining output for a total of three hours.

The M60 + AW 18650 gave over 1.5 hours of regulated output and a total runtime of over 3.5 hours.

It should be noted that when a single cell is in it's regulated range (above 3.8 volts) the M60's output is not visually lower than that of a 2 cell setup although lightbox tests indicated that they were slightly lower.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/194879

Bullzeyebill · Jan 19, 2009

gsnorm said:
Some runtime tests I did awhile back resulted in the M60 + AW 17670 protected cell running for approx. one hour of regulated output (cell above 3.8 volts) followed by two hours of slowly declining output for a total of three hours.

The M60 + AW 18650 gave over 1.5 hours of regulated output and a total runtime of over 3.5 hours.

It should be noted that when a single cell is in it's regulated range (above 3.8 volts) the M60's output is not visually lower than that of a 2 cell setup although lightbox tests indicated that they were slightly lower.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/194879

Thanks for info, and for updating your thread. It would appear that if the M60L was tested that the runtime would be very good with one 17670 and would probably not show reduced output during regulated runtime. Interesting circuits that Gene is putting out. What were your lightbox numbers for the M60 and two LiIons, just lux numbers.

Bill

roymail · Jan 19, 2009

curtispdx said:
How about an M30 with a CR123 dummy and a regular RCR123? Or a Dereelight drop-in with a voltage range of 3~16V?

That's what I was thinking, too. You'd get more for your money that way and better performance. :thumbsup:

Mikellen · Jan 19, 2009

I have a couple of questions regarding: gsnorm runtime test of an M60 with a protected AW 17670 cell that ran for about 1 hour (cell above 3.8 volts) of regulated output folllowed by 2 hours of slowly declining output.

(1) I was under the assumption that in a protected cell, the light would just shut off without notice when the protection circuit kicked in.

(2) I thought the 17670 protected cell was rated at 3.7 volts. If the cell in the test was charged above 3.8 volts in order to operate the M60 in its regulated state, would that damage the cell or can potentially damage the cell if usually charged above the rated voltage of 3.7?

Please note that I'm very new to rechargeables and flashlights in general so gsnorm please don't take my questions (lack of understanding) personally.

Thank you.

Yoda4561 · Jan 19, 2009

A 3.6/3.7v cell is actually 4.2 volts fully charged. Much like a 1.2 volt NIMH battery is actually over 1.4 volts fully charged. The 3.7 volt lithium ion delivers that voltage into a load, then sags to less than 3 volts when fully discharged. Protection circuits kick in at around 2.5 volts to prevent damage to the cell itself, between 3.6 and 3 volts you'll get that long tail light, and with LEDs being direct driven, the lower the voltage the less current is being drained.

m60w on single 17670

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