Debate about the use of a comma for lists

I got into a debate about he "optional" use of a comma in a list of items...

If I said the following, "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami, peanut butter and jelly."

That result is very different if I said the following, "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami, peanut butter, and jelly."

Which supports my contention that the comma is not "Optional". What do you say?

It's conditionally optional. Both of your examples are subject to interpretation and should be reworded if you want the majority of readers to accurately understand what you are saying.

A comma followed by an "and" should terminate a list. So the correct form of your first example is: "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami, and peanut butter and jelly."

StarHalo said:

A comma followed by an "and" should terminate a list. So the correct form of your first example is: "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami, and peanut butter and jelly."

Click to expand...

Unless, the jelly was consumed separately from the PB.

I was proofreading something my wife wrote just yesterday and this question came up. I learned to always use a comma before the final "and". She thought either was acceptable. Not sure what's really correct, but my vote is to use one.

Geoff

But does that PB&J have a Borofloat lens or a UCL? :laughing:

Probably to avoid any ambiguousness I wouldn't have used peanut butter and jelly as the last item in the list. (i.e. We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, peanut butter and jelly, and pastrami). Note however that you still need the comma before the last "and" to totally avoid confusion, or someone might think you ate a peanut butter, jelly, AND pastrami sandwich.

I'm thinking however that the comma might still be optional in cases where there's not likely to be any ambiguity. For example, take this sentence: "I like all types of lighting: incandescent, fluorescent, HID and LED." There is no such thing as an HID and LED light, so anyone even a little knowledgeable about the subject is going to know exactly what I mean. Still, I generally tend to use a comma before the "and" as that's how I was taught.

I deal with this issue as part of my occupation. I work for an educational software company that makes products mainly focused on reading and literacy. We have gone through quite a few headaches over this little issue. No matter what you do, half the customers complain.

Apparently, depending on where and when you attended school one method was taught over the other. So half the country does it one way and is sure they are absolutely correct and the other half does it the other way and is sure they are correct.

I think the final decision we came to was to just use both methods.

Check out Serial Comma on Wikipedia. It seems to be an American vs. British thing, with the British tending to do without the final comma.

greenLED said:

Unless, the jelly was consumed separately from the PB.

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Good Point. lol

Bill

I was taught to not use the final comma, but I always felt that should be used. It just seemed right to me. Either way, it's a minor issue compared to how many people mangle the English language. Bad spelling, lack of decent sentence structure, and the whole "to, too, two", or "their, there, they're" foul ups bugs me more. I'm guilty of messing up my fair share. I just hate it when I have a hard time understanding what someone is trying to write or type.

nisshin said:

Check out Serial Comma on Wikipedia. It seems to be an American vs. British thing, with the British tending to do without the final comma.

Click to expand...

The British tend to mess up a lot more than commas. Apostrophes are like commas, right? Just higher up?:green:

mrsinbad said:

I got into a debate about he "optional" use of a comma in a list of items...

If I said the following, "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami, peanut butter and jelly."

That result is very different if I said the following, "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami, peanut butter, and jelly."

Which supports my contention that the comma is not "Optional". What do you say?

Click to expand...

I'd be equally concerned about the missing "t" in "the", the unnecessary use of punctuation ("optional") when the context is clear, missing preposition ("very different than if I said"), and unnecessary capitalization ("Optional").

Meanwhile, the world is rapidly passing me (us) by. awhfy? swdyt?

From what I heard, it a business setting you usually use the comma, but more of the English teachers are advocating not using it. I think it has already been said here that it depends on where you are and who you talk to.

I've been a lurker for quite some time on this site and this is my very first post on the forum.. ironic that it has nothing to do with Flashlights, but here is what I know of the final comma:

The final comma in a list makes a difference in how each item in the list is associated. What was said earlier about the Peanut Butter being eaten with the Bread is absolutely correct. There is precedence for legal cases where an inheritance was left to children A, B and C vs A, B, and C. In situation one, A receives half the inheritance while B and C claim the other half. In the second case, A, B, and C all receive equal portions.

This is the difference a comma makes..

Great board, by the way.. hopefully my successive posts will be more illuminating in every sense of the word.
-\Visdom

What I learned in my writing class is either way is fine.

Conversations via Text *ARE* COMPLICATED...

1dash1 said:

I'd be equally concerned about the:

1. missing "t" in "the"
2. unnecessary use of punctuation ("optional") when the context is clear
3. missing preposition ("very different than if I said")
4. unnecessary capitalization ("Optional")

...

Click to expand...

Conversation via text (for ME! ...and IMHO *MANY* others who won't admit it...) is SO MUCH more complicated than face-to-face, and somewhat more than verbal (i.e. telephone). Personally, I use punctuation and capitalization (*AND* formatting and smilies! ) in my text messages for EMPHASIS - where the recipient cannot SEE my facial/body expressions / HEAR my intonations. Reading someone's text MONOTONE may COMPLETELY miss the point the sender is attempting to communicate. (Yes, I realize that I 'may' sometimes overdo it with FONTS, COLORS, BOLD, or ITALICS, etc... )

But, returning to your FIRST peeve, the missing "t" in "the", *I* personally (too?) have a TERRIBLE time accepting folks who either MISSPELL or don't PROOFREAD as sincere. Frequent occurrences that tend stick in my mind are:

• their vs there
• loose vs lose
• your vs you're
• the vs hte (or some variation of transposed letters)

Once I see this disregard in 'accuracy' (as in something LOWER than the level that someone would attempt to provide on their resume for a position they *REALLY* wanted), UNLESS I perceive it to be 'out-of-context' from the rest of the post , I tend to view the person as 'less than...' :thumbsdow.

Present yourself to strangers as best as you can. First impressions are *EXACTLY* what they sound like they are... :goodjob: *OR* :eeew:

For example, asking questions that have been "ASKED & ANSWERED" *NUMEROUS* times and could be answered via SEARCH indicates, to me at least, a lack of sincerity / abundance of pretentiousness...

NOTE: Could you detect the higher pitch in my voice for SEE, HEAR, TERRIBLE, MISSPELL and PROOFREAD and the even HIGHER one for *I*, *REALLY* and *EXACTLY*?

IMHO, posting on forums should be both FUN and EDUCATIONAL:

• DON'T (unnecessarily) FLAME / BE SARCASTIC TO / RIDICULE others.
• Help out where you can.
• Listen to your mother: If you don't have anything good to to say about someone, don't say anything at all.

This post is an *EXAGGERATION* of the usage of FONTS, COLORS, BOLD, or ITALICS, etc..., but, I trust that it gets my point across. It also addresses my view of the 'LAZY GENERATION' who would rather ASK (again!) than SEARCH...

P.S. THANKS for listening - I'm gone (back to LURKING and reading the *GREAT* CPF Archives)...

P.P.S. Upon MULTIPLE re-readings, I've gone *WAY* OT! Thanks again for listening and *ANY* replies...

I checked this last night in a grammar book I have lying around... yes, the Brits do it differently, and I would definitely err on the side of removing the last comma.
However: I think in this case, for the sake of the "peanut butter and jelly" sandwich, the bread product in question ought to be placed elsewhere in the list to avoid the question of whether the fillings were together or in seperate sandwiches.

As far as grammar is concerned... let's not go there. Elegance and eloquence, coherency and cogence are simply not understood or taught in school.

Bret

Jumbo Shrimp.

mrsinbad said:

I got into a debate about he "optional" use of a comma in a list of items...

If I said the following, "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami, peanut butter and jelly."

That result is very different if I said the following, "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami, peanut butter, and jelly."

Which supports my contention that the comma is not "Optional". What do you say?

Click to expand...

StarHalo said:

A comma followed by an "and" should terminate a list. So the correct form of your first example is: "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami, and peanut butter and jelly."

Click to expand...

I was always taught that you cannot have an AND preceding a comma just as using AND twice so close together was also considered poor Grammar, ideally you'd look for a different word with similar implied meaning for example... "We ate the following sandwiches: corned beef, pastrami and peanut butter with jelly." :thumbsup: