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Thread: Flashlight recommendation for blinding - NOT SelfDefense TOOL

  1. #1

    Default Flashlight recommendation for blinding - NOT SelfDefense TOOL

    Hi all,

    I'm using daily a fenix tk11, but I feel that I need more lumenpower for tactical aplications! I had quite a few flashlights, but the more powerfull were too big for EDC,,,

    So I'm seeking a light that has +-:

    -I need more blinding power than my tk11
    -300 lumens or more
    -LED
    -rechargeables prefered...
    -something just a tad bigger than a fenix TK11(135mm - 152 gr) 225 lumens and smaller than a WE m90 (222mm - 299 gr)

    So something along the lines of the TK11 but with more output would be perfect.

    sugestions, or I'm asking for a non-existent light?




    SUGESTIONS POSTED:


    -Wolf-Eyes Sniper 6AX MCE LED (150 mm - 178gr) ~580lumens LED
    -Dereelight DBS MC-E (152 mm - 185gr) ~500lumens LED
    -JetBeam M1X (198 mm - 285gr) ~700lumens LED
    -Wolf Eyes 9TX Raider (152mm - ?) with EO9 ~380 lumens INC
    Last edited by insaned; 01-25-2009 at 12:30 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    The difference between the 220 Lumen TK11 and a 300 lumen light is not going to be seen.

    You'll probably want 500+ lumens, look at the Dereelight DBS MC-E

  3. #3

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    Jake, you stand correct for the luments difference.
    However, I just don't seek myself more light, but more power to blind! The concern is that the tk11 lumenpowers blinds, but it is manageable, and just need something a bit more strong.

    it seems a nice light.. my only concern is the sizing, since this reminds me the m90 and it was taking in a bit of the long size! At first sight it seems perfect to me, have to take some measurements tought!

    ps- found a comparison pic, I think it is quite nice sized http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/h...RS019Small.jpg

  4. #4
    *Flashaholic* Gunner12's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    Are you looking for more throw?
    What about runtime?
    Beam pattern?

    To get more then 200 something lumen out the front will require a multi die LED which will have a wider beam then the TK11.

    It takes 4x the light for one light to appear 2x as bright as another.

  5. #5
    *Flashaholic* Marduke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    The TK11 is already brighter than most any other LED tactical light out there. What do you really expect in the way of a "weapon" that can be avoided by simply looking away? Tactical lights were NEVER meant to blind, just buy an extra second or two while giving the user a clear view of the target.
    Last edited by Marduke; 01-24-2009 at 09:42 PM.

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* Wattnot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    Quote Originally Posted by insaned View Post
    Hi all,

    So I'm seeking a light that has +-:

    -300 lumens
    -LED
    -rechargeables prefered...
    -something just a tad bigger than a tk11 and smaller than a WE m90

    So something along the lines of the TK11 but with more output would be perfect.

    sugestions, or I'm asking for a non-existent light?
    Sniper P7 meets all of those requirements unless 300 was a MAX

    But here is another option: I very rarely see anyone meet ALL of the list of requirements in posts like this. That being said, and since you DIDN'T post this in the LED section, I'm going to hit 3 out of 4 of your requirements with one, easy shot: The WE Raider with the LF HO9. It's built like a tank, has 320 lumens, uses two 18500's and it's the size you want. Another bonus is the price. It should come in under $60 including the LF module. You can even get the EO9 for 380 lumens, if 320 isn't enough.

    Displacing night on a daily basis.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    Maybe I should have specified more my intents with this light! And probably tactical is not the best category, but some fill this, hence I mentioned, I edited the thred title so I guess it is more refined.

    My intention is to blind, in confrontations were I might not have a gun, but want it to be pockeatable to use it daily! I probably shouldn't have mentioned lumens power too, but focused the blinding objective. What I feels is that the tk11 is not enought!

    I'm looking for a good powerfull pocket light, with a good throw, well focused beam prefered. Don't care about runtime and price.

    Wattnot, it seems a nice option, however I'm not sure about the beam spill of the eo and I feel there is something better out there than WE.
    I just placed this in a more general area, but led is prefered.

    The Dereelight seems a bit bigger, But it's not far from what I want, specially after I saw some beam shots. It has a nice throw and beam, specially the R2 version. I'm not sure however if the MC-E beeing more brighter than the R2 version though
    Last edited by insaned; 01-24-2009 at 10:08 PM.

  8. #8
    *Flashaholic* Marduke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    Quote Originally Posted by insaned View Post

    My intention is to blind, in confrontations were I might not have a gun, but want it to be pockeatable to use it daily!
    I encourage you to read up on one of the many dozens of threads discussing that "tactic", and it's inherent uselessness. A flashlight by itself is simply not useful as any sort of a weapon, and relying on it as such is asking for disaster.

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* hyperloop's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    what sort of environment would this 'blinding' be taking place?? A place with ambient lighting or a place which has little ambient lighting i.e. nearly pitch dark.

    If you are going to use it in a place with lots of ambient lighting than 500 lumens may not even be enough as the eyes are adapted to having light in them and a burst of light would not blind as much as if it was used in a dark alley.

    I say this as i live in a country with loads of ambient lighting and the 225 lumen Jetbeam that i have is good for just a second or two but to blind me such that i cannot see for several seconds? sorry man, dont think so, and this is from arms length not 20 feet away.

    But in conditions of pitch or near pitch darkness, even 100 plus lumens is good enough. Example: I was out at sea fishing, all lights off, no moon, just some cockpit lights and the running lights on the boat were on. My friend was messing around with my Ultrafire C3 (P4 led) and clicked it on in my eyes!!! OK, now THAT worked, after that burst of light, the rest of the boat was to me, in total darkness and things that i could vaguely make out earlier were now gone. Took close to 30 seconds to regain night vision.

    Perhaps the new Jetbeam M1X is what you need, MC-E emitter, 2 modes, i is MAX and the other is programable using their IBS UI so you could set the other mode for a 15hz strobe.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    Quote Originally Posted by Marduke View Post
    I encourage you to read up on one of the many dozens of threads discussing that "tactic", and it's inherent uselessness. A flashlight by itself is simply not useful as any sort of a weapon, and relying on it as such is asking for disaster.
    Marduke, I'm well aware of it and I know what you mean, I just made this post with conscience. My intention it is not subtitute a weapon with the light. It is just a upgrade to the choices, or very first choice.

    Discussing the environment, risks and tactics is not my intention at all with this post because I know how long it might turn out and had to detail a lot for this beein 100% understandable for eveyone... I can do that, but it will just turn a lot more fastidious to guys to reply with long posts and will easilly turn out in a tactical discussion instead of a objective recommendation discussion!


    My TK11 is not strong enought, and I needed a stronger light with the same specs and final purposes.

    I just posted because I don't know all the light market, and I'm not updated latelly about flashlights that fill this requirements.


    What fo you guys feel about the Dereelight MC-e VS R2 for this purpose?


    HYPERLOOP,

    I feel you question, however I can't give you a definitive answer, since this would be a overall choice.
    I feel the tk11 is not enought in a general-dim ambient street, I guess that should be the the reference!

    Well, can't push a lot on the power though.. specially due to size.

    I guess I start to regreat selling my WE M90.. however I found it a bit long.
    Last edited by insaned; 01-24-2009 at 10:57 PM.

  11. #11
    Flashaholic* Alan B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    The Wolf Eyes Sniper MC-e is pretty good in this class of light. A bit more throw than the P7, still plenty of spill, Lotsa lumens (rated about 580), 18650 or 2xCR123, forward clicky starts in high.

    Getting the hotspot onto the target's eyes before they blink is difficult, it is probably a very bright spill or flood that will be most useful. There are only a few milliseconds before the eyes close. Incans are not as good as LEDs for this due to the slow ramp-up time while the filament heats up. It is only the initial burst of light that gets through. A floody 18650 driven P7 or MC-e is probably the better choice. Throwers use a bunch of lumens in the hotspot and so the spill is weaker. At least you want a large hotspot so that is on target right at the turn-on.

    A xenon strobe is even better yet, just make sure you blink when you trigger it...

    -- Alan

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* Alan B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    Perhaps we should build a "personal defense" light that combines a nice moderate LED beam with a xenon strobe. That could cause some temporary loss of visual acuity.

    -- Alan

  13. #13

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    Alan,

    That might not take the full of the strobe, since the pattern tends to bother due to the non-adaptation of the retina. And a always on under-light might help adapt the retina and thus not breaking so well the adaptation - which is the big score of the strobe... however, it might work with some studied combinations. Or better than that, independent strobes with different frequencies.
    Last edited by insaned; 01-24-2009 at 11:22 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan B View Post
    Getting the hotspot onto the target's eyes before they blink is difficult, it is probably a very bright spill or flood that will be most useful. There are only a few milliseconds before the eyes close. Incans are not as good as LEDs for this due to the slow ramp-up time while the filament heats up. It is only the initial burst of light that gets through.

    valid points there.


    this is getting a tough decison....

  15. #15

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    Quote Originally Posted by insaned View Post
    My TK11 is not strong enought, and I needed a stronger light with the same specs and final purposes.

    I just posted because I don't know all the light market, and I'm not updated latelly about flashlights that fill this requirements.
    People are telling you in all sorts of ways that what you are asking for doesn't exist.

    What fo you guys feel about the Dereelight MC-e VS R2 for this purpose?
    Still not enough. Look, if you really insist on going this path, the light you want is the Surefire M6 / MN21, which is set up for tactical use and at 30+ watts is at least 3x as powerful as any single-led light being made. Ignore the lumen rating since the M6 is an incandescent and most of its output power is in the infrared, which is just as effective for this blinding nonsense but counts as zero lumens for illumination purposes. Really though, what you are buying is marketing hype, you're much better off with a firearm or even pepper spray if you want a self defense accessory. As several people have remarked, there are dozen of threads about this topic, please use the search function to find some of them.[/QUOTE]

  16. #16

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    We have a neighbor that let's his large anti-social dogs out to run loose in the neighborhood at night. Kindly requests didn't seem to work. I found that adding a little bear-grade pepper spray to the light beam can give you a pretty fair upper hand on the situation.

    PS. Make sure the wind is in your favor.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    Quote Originally Posted by insaned View Post
    Jake, you stand correct for the luments difference.
    However, I just don't seek myself more light, but more power to blind! The concern is that the tk11 lumenpowers blinds, but it is manageable, and just need something a bit more strong.

    it seems a nice light.. my only concern is the sizing, since this reminds me the m90 and it was taking in a bit of the long size! At first sight it seems perfect to me, have to take some measurements tought!

    ps- found a comparison pic, I think it is quite nice sized http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/h...RS019Small.jpg
    The correct use it, " I stand corrected". Means I corrected you.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for ~300 lumens

    Quote Originally Posted by paulr View Post
    Really though, what you are buying is marketing hype, you're much better off with a firearm or even pepper spray if you want a self defense accessory.
    In my personal search for the best self defense accessory, in the end I opted for a solid pair of running shoes with good traction

  19. #19

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    Paulr, I live in Europe, maybe this should help clear some things up. So we don't get CCW licence.
    If I expect a firearm, I will not take out a flashlight and pretend that have the sun in my pocket and burn the guy eyes out.

    I don't want this for self-defense. I don't need a light for self-defense. I just want the light for a bit leverage!

    We can discuss a lot, but I guess some valid sugestions were made by other guys or at least as far as I undrstood, they will work. I don't expect to use the light as a gun, I'm a boxer, so my wrists work way better than any light. I just wanted a light that worked better than a TK11.

    jackeR, thanks for the correction
    Last edited by insaned; 01-25-2009 at 12:13 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    Ok, after doing some searches under the forum I know why I'm having some replys which I wasn't understanding why they were following some path!

    The intention of this light is NOT to fight with it, NOT to blind for long periods and NOT a Self-Defense acessory.
    The intention is to gave a quick bright unexpected flash before fleeing or fighting.
    Last edited by insaned; 01-25-2009 at 12:39 AM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    Quote Originally Posted by insaned View Post
    The intention of this light is NOT to fight with it, NOT to blind for long periods and NOT a Self-Defense acessory.
    The intention is to gave a quick bright unexpected flash before fleeing or fighting.
    How about a light with a "tactical" or "disorienting" strobe? I assume this would work best at buying you a few seconds, if that.

    The flashing might also help call attention to whats going on.

    You can also get away with a smaller light.
    Last edited by bullfrog; 01-25-2009 at 12:43 AM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    Quote Originally Posted by bullfrog View Post
    How about a light with a "tactical" or "disorienting" strobe? I assume this would work best at buying you a few seconds, if that.
    I'm open to sugestions, however most of the lights doesn't have strobe ready on click-on.

    The WE Sniper MCE has that function, however it's not a click on ready.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding in hostile environments

    Quote Originally Posted by insaned View Post
    I'm open to sugestions, however most of the lights doesn't have strobe ready on click-on.

    The WE Sniper MCE has that function, however it's not a click on ready.
    I don't personally use a strobe feature but here are a few threads I found through a quick search that might help and address in detail - looks like there are numerous "click on ready" choices out there:

    Whats the most nauseating strobe

    Lights that strobe

    Strobing Tactical Light

    How to maximize the perceived brightness of a strobe

    Good luck

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding - NOT SelfDefense TOOL

    Get a Dereelight DBS MC-E if you want a brighter light. Don't buy if for the blinding, tactical, mall ninja garbage that is so often over played, a flashlight is not going to be you're saving grace, you're mind is use both wisely.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding - NOT SelfDefense TOOL

    An M84 flash bang produces a burst of approximately 6-8 million candela which temporarily blinds a person for approximately 5 seconds. Do you really think any of these relatively dinky LED lights can come close to replicating that effect?

  26. #26
    Flashaholic* TITAN1833's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding - NOT SelfDefense TOOL

    photonic disruptors,flash bangs and very bright lights give only temporary disrupted vision,it is knowing what to do in those vital seconds what really counts,and obviously knowing how and when to use these devices to your advantage helps.
    Last edited by TITAN1833; 01-25-2009 at 07:13 AM. Reason: add
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  27. #27
    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding - NOT SelfDefense TOOL

    Lumens don't blind, lux does. A fluorescent tube produces more than 3000 lumens but you can look right at it comfortably. It's got lots of lumens, but low lux.

    The DBS is as bright as you will find today. It will work more effectively than anything with less than 35000 lux@1m (or whatever comparative distance you choose).

    Of course, the effect of temporary blinding is not that significant. You only get a fraction of a second.
    Last edited by LukeA; 01-25-2009 at 08:58 AM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Flashlight recommendation for blinding - NOT SelfDefense TOOL

    This was an extremely bad idea for a thread. There is no place here for discussions (even futile ones like this) about attempting to blind or otherwise inflict damage on other people. Thread closed.
    Resistance is futile...

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