Key Fobs

Here's one that's becoming more and more common.... As a matter of fact, if a child was lucky enough to have been born into a rich family, they already will miss out on the following:

Cars that start by inserting a key into their ignitions.

I'm in the market for a new car. Certain models that aren't even expensive luxury cars are now using "push-button start" instead of keys.

And every automotive review I've ever read, either posted by a car magazine editor or a regular person who bought a car with push-button start, praises this utterly useless feature. Actually, it's worse than useless....

You can tell your grand-children about the time you accidentally locked your keys in the car, and didn't have a spare key in your wallet. You can tell them about how you had to call the cops, and how they had to use a slim-jim to help you out by breaking into your own car.

Funniest example of that which I remember was nearly a decade ago in my old neighborhood. Walking past the small parking lot of a supermarket, two cops were trying to open an elderly person's car door with a slim-jim. They had no luck. A young man who worked in the supermarket came out , and offered to help. In mere seconds, he popped the lock open. And then looked at the crowd, saying with a smile; "I'm not a theif, folks." The two cops just laughed, so did the rest of the crowd.

When key-fobs were created that allowed for key-less entry, that was a great feature. You opened your door after parking your ride, and the car would beep; reminding you to take your key out the ignition. And the nice part was, you had a key back-up in case the fob got damaged; so that you could still unlock the door.

Here's the problem with "push-button start," cars that use it; don't have a key back-up for the ignition. If your fob fails, you're stranded! Not as though cops can be called and slim-jim your electronic ignition system. And how can the new fobs fail? I got my hands on a 2009 Nissan Altima owners manual from a rental unit.

Fob failures include:

1) Contact with water or salt water.

2) Being placed too near a cellphone.

3) An area with a lot of radio-wave activity can prevent your fob from working properly.

4) Dying batteries in your fob.

Ironically, there's only a back-up in place in case #4 takes place. (I already know of an individual who's Altima wouldn't start due to #2).

Here's the thing, an actual metal key is not affected by any of the above. But at least a push-button start looks cool. A comforting thought, as you wait for the tow-truck driver to arrive due to the fact that you have no way to access the ignition system in your car. (The fobs do have a hidden key built into them, but the key only works for the doors and trunk).

Very interesting thread you've started, Monocrom !





Never realized this . . . .


Haven't been "car shopping" for more than a decade.



But, i Can't Believe they aren't making those

new Car-Fobs to be WaterPROOF !


:shakehead

_

I have keyless door locks and a keyless ignition system.

BUT the ignition system is just a modified keyed ignition. With the fob within the limits of the frame of the car (haven't tested the trunk yet) the ignition is active. It is a black plastic knob that you turn. Now for the fun part. The drivers door has a key hole for the key that slides into the FOB. The black knob that is the ignition can be popped of (with no damage) and the key can be used in the STANDARD keyed igntion switch. No push buttons.

Also with the key fox within 3 feet or so of the door handle (front doors both sides) a sensor in the handle can sense your hand and will unlock the car. The same fob distance rule applies with a little black button on the door handle that is used to lock the car. The trunk has an unlock button to and it uses the same 3 foot sensor.

Door unlocking and those kinds of thing are programmed into the onboard computer with it's touch screen.

This is my Lancer 09 GTS. Fun little features that make life easier and in no way stop you from getting into your car or driving it without a work key fob.

Burgess said:

Very interesting thread you've started, Monocrom !

Click to expand...

Thanks.

But the credit actually belongs to Empath, who turned it into its own topic. (It was first posted in the "Things that today's kids will miss out on" topic).

As far as water-proofing goes, something like that is far more understandable than the key-fob malfunctioning due to being too close to a cellphone. If the fob is inside your pants pockets while going through the rinse cycle, you know you'll have to grab the spare one. But you never know if the cellphone will be an issue.

According to the owner's manual of the 2009 Altima, being close to a cellphone may cause the fob to malfunction. Won't happen all the time, but you never know when it might.

The technology is available now, but it hasn't advanced to the point of being as reliable as a key. And why there's no key back-up in place, I'll never understand. Nissan is not the only company that has done this.

Funny about the starter button being seen as something modern, I remember converting my 1937 Ford to key start because I wanted to be modern.
Norm

All this high tech replacement for a set of keys is a bit overboard in my opinion. How much will it cost to get another one if that one breaks, malfunctions or gets lost? I like to have several spare keys for my car, just in case I lose mine, or something. I was a bit miffed that my GM car has one of those "chips" in the key that drives the price of a replacement key to well over $20, and it can only be made by the dealer or certain locksmiths. The hardware store can't make the key for me. How much will it cost to repair if the sensor or some part of the car that is related to that key fob fails? I bet it'll cost tons more than in a car that doesn't need one. And what is really gained by having one of those keyless ignition fobs? Bells and whistles, that probably drove up the price of the car to start with. You still have to have it with you to get in and start the car. You just don't have to stick the key in the hole and turn, right?
Also, what happens if your battery dies? Is there some sort of back up system that will allow you to get in the car?
I hope I never buy a car that has one of those. Ok, rant over!

Truly overboard, I have two cars with pushbutton starters, and frankly can do without this feature!! Its kind of cool to walk up to the car and not have to get your keys or fob out to unlock and start the car, but after the coolness factor wears off, you are left with many potential problems as Monocrom listed. The best feature of the system on the Corvette is that it can be programmed to lock itself, in fact if you remote lock it using the fob, it does not set the alarm (at least the way I have mine programmed), so it's preferable to let the car lock itself.

There is a fail-safe entry path for the Vette: a keyed lock that enables you to open the hatch (not sure about convertibles), that enables you to pull a cable, that activiates a latch, that unlocks the door. Phew! At that point, if you cannot start the car because the battery is dead, it does not allow you to close and lock the door properly so you can go for help without exposing yourself to an easy break-in.

I've had much practice utilizing this emergency procedure because of a parasitic drain that kills the battery. GM has tried but cannot fix this particular problem on the early C-6 Vettes. Therefore, I really do wish for the simplicity of a normal keyed ignition, without all the gimmicks and potential for problems.

My Toyota hybrid also has a pushbuttom starter, which typical of most Japanese products works much better than "Made in USA" (custom flashlight builders excepted). I have constantly been punished for trying to buy USA and if it did not cost so many jobs, I'd just as soon see GM go out of business, selling off their various divisions to smaller entrepreneurs; although I know that is not really going to work either. Back to the Toyota, it also has a fail-safe mechanism to get you into the car with a dead fob, but you are SOL if missing the fob. With both cars, once you are inside, even with a dead fob, you can plug it into a receptical for the ignition system to read the code and let you start the car - that is assuming your car battery is not dead in the first place. If it were an option, I would never order a pushbutton starter. BTW, to add insult to injury, a replacement fob is usually in the order of $200+ .

Paid a visit to a Mazda dealer today. First thing I asked the sales-lady was if the Mazda 6 has a key back-up for the push-button starter. I know that the two lowest trim levels for the '09 Mazda 6 use a traditional key ignition. Other trim levels use a push-button start that is located at the bottom of the center stack, just to the left. The spot for the key ignition is covered with a piece of plastic on the higher trim lines.

Turns out, the 6 does have a key back-up.

Nice to see that someone over at Mazda thought of the same potential problems that I mentioned. (Too bad no one at Nissan did).

After I try out the push-button start on the 6, I'm popping that plastic covering off and trying out the traditional ignition. I scheduled a test drive for 3 days from now.

Also.... The fob on the Nissan Altima can be inserted into a slot just to the left and below the steering wheel. If the batteries in the fob are dying, you can still start your car. But as sunsync pointed out, won't do you any good if the car battery is dead. So you don't get an improvement over a traditional key. You just get a cool factor and extra disadvantages.

If the car battery is dead, keyed ignition isn't going to work either.

Which brings up something I never thought about. Is it possible to push start (pop the clutch) a Corvette with a keyless ignition system?

The new proximity fobs are nice because you don't have to remove the key from your pocket. The stupid ones were the ones that still required you to shove the fob into a rectangular slot in the dash and then press another button to start.

In the future when everybody is RFID tagged, everything will be keyless opening.

brucec said:

If the car battery is dead, keyed ignition isn't going to work either.

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That was one of my points in my earlier post. It's not as though you get an additional benefit from using the fob. If the car battery is dead, you're stuck. Not as though inserting the fob into the right slot will power up your car so you can drive home or to a mechanic's shop.

No real advantages over using a key, just a bunch of disadvantages that could leave you stranded.

brucec said:

Which brings up something I never thought about. Is it possible to push start (pop the clutch) a Corvette with a keyless ignition system?

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Is it possible to push-start any car that has an electronic control module (i.e. fuel injection is controlled by electronics)? If you don't have power for the electronics, my guess is that you won't have any fuel and thereby it's not going to start.

This is certainly an argument for replacing the car battery on a regular schedule instead of just waiting for it to die. ...or an argument for owning a vehicle with no electronics. There is something appealing about the old '63 Chevy pick-up truck I drove in high school. Extremely simple and reliable. Horrible emissions, I suspect, and safety wasn't its strong suit. And you have to be ready to replace points and spark plugs on a very regular basis.

Steve K.

Steve K said:

Is it possible to push-start any car that has an electronic control module (i.e. fuel injection is controlled by electronics)?

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I think so... I had a 2001 model VW GTI VR6 before that I push started a few times. Among other more serious QC issues, that car's battery wouldn't last a month without driving, but at least it was fairly easy to push start. I think the computer controlled the fuel injection, but I could be wrong. Or are you referring to the new direct injection engines? I haven't had any issues with those.

I'm 35, so I have never driven anything dating from the 60's, but I do have an orange 1975 Yamaha RD350 motorcycle. I don't think vehicles get any simpler than that one: kick-start, 2-stroke, separate oil reservoir, rear DRUM brake, single front disc brake, lots of blue-gray smoke, etc. I bought it in 2002 as the second owner with only 8000 original miles on it. Up to about 30mph, it can still keep up with a modern 600cc crotch-rocket. It gets a bit jittery above 60mph, though.

I think what he means is: is there a way to get ACC or ON power to the car without a working pushbutton. Most batteries that die will still power the computer and all the circuits just not enough juice to crank the engine. So will is there a way to get juice to the necessary components without enough to crank the engine so you can push start?

65535 said:

I think what he means is: is there a way to get ACC or ON power to the car without a working pushbutton. Most batteries that die will still power the computer and all the circuits just not enough juice to crank the engine. So will is there a way to get juice to the necessary components without enough to crank the engine so you can push start?

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Maybe there's a gray area here... I assumed that people were talking about batteries so dead that the RFID circuits that read the key fob weren't working. To me, that means that the ECU doesn't work either, so there won't be any fuel injected.

When I say "fuel injected", that includes both direct injection and injection into the port or intake manifold. Anything else requires a carburator, I believe. My last carburated vehicle was a '84 Datsun pickup, and I don't miss having it gum up or having the floats quit floating. My current car is a '96 Acura Integra, which still uses a mechanical key, and I'm pretty happy with it. Why would I need to unlock my car from 20 feet away?? I'm pretty sure I'll be standing next to it in a few seconds anyway. Yeah, I'm a bit of a Luddite, but I don't see the attraction of the key fobs.

Steve K.

What happens if you try to bypass the system and install a keyed lock ?

NA8 said:

What happens if you try to bypass the system and install a keyed lock ?

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I'm not even sure if that's possible. And if it is, I'm guessing it would be horribly expensive to get someone with the knowledge and ability to pull that off.

NA8 said:

What happens if you try to bypass the system and install a keyed lock ?

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Most of the systems are tied into the ECU, and I would assume/guess that there is some sort of communications protocol that has to take place. Not as simple as just applying power and going. You'd probably need to ask the manufacturer if you want an authoritative answer. They might offer such an option, but it seems unlikely.

Steve K.

NA8 said:

What happens if you try to bypass the system and install a keyed lock ?

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I don't think that would work. Isn't one of the points of the key fob to provide greater security? If so, I doubt if it would be so easy to bypass.

Most vehicles with a key lock have some sort of electronic security system, for example the chip in the key. Now newer systems there is no chip in the key, for example the Corvette mentioned above will have GM's newer system where there are hall effect sensors in each of the lock pins. These give a different voltage depending on how far away the cut in the key is so as you turn the key past run to start it induces a small voltage for each cut in the key and the system compares that to whats stored. So if you push start that corvette the computer will just shut it down since it doesn't read the key. My wife's Impala wouldn't start one day and I was troubleshooting it and stuck a screwdriver across the starter terminals to crank it that way and it started then shut off after a couple seconds. I towed it home and then it started the next time I tried with the key. It did the same thing a few months later and I had read that the behavior of the security system so I had her pull the key out and flip it over and turn to run for the 10 minutes required to relearn and it then started. I had a new key cut and its been fine since, it appears that the key was wearing on one side causing misreads.

Now there is a reason for these keyless push button start. The .gov is mandating no engine idle time in a couple years so manufacturers are getting ready. First step was letting the computer control the starter, the start position on the key switch goes into the computer which then controls the starter relay. You can see this by turning the key to start for a real short time and letting go and the computer will keep cranking the extra second until the engine starts. Next step is the throttle by wire so when you push the throttle the computer can then start the larger starter which gets the vehicle rolling and the engine started and then opens the throttle to match where your foot is on the pedal. Next step is switching most of the accessories over to electric such as power steering and power brakes. Finally they replace the started with a larger one that can move the vehicle and start the engine. Essentially mild hybrid technology going into every vehicle. the push button is just another implementation of the computer controller starter, eventually those vehicles will be like the Toyota prius and other hybrids where pressing start will just turn on the instruments and such but not start the engine until you start moving.

So, would you still be able to warm up your car on a frigid morning, with ice on all the windows? It's a necessary thing for those of us who park outside in the winter.