Mother of all scuba lights

MrNaz

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I would like to make the mother of all scuba lights, as I am tired of my little Princeton Tec Miniwave LED. I've just modified it to use 3 x P4 emitters, but it's still pretty weak compared to what I want.

What I would like is a light with 7 emitters (hex grid pattern), either P7s or MCEs, driven to their brightest levels. They should be focussed to a large hotspot, say 15 degree beam, allowing the use of smaller reflectors, keeping the head's size within manageable limits. Heat is not an issue, as long as the heat sink that the emitters are mounted on is mated to the housing. The water will keep them cool. A thermistor could protect the emitters from being left on while not in the water.

The big challenge is the housing and ensuring that it is mated to the LED heat sink. I was thinking of lathing the whole thing into a titanium tube using a lexan front lens. The light should have a pistol grip, as I prefer those to lantern grips. I have no idea how best to machine this to the main body of the light, but I'd like it to be detachable for compact storage.

The lamp assembly needs to be interchangeable and as simple as possible. This would be useful as different emitter tints are better for different water conditions, and I could have multiple lamp assemblies for different conditions. The lamp assembly should incorporate the LEDs and their reflectors and screw into the head behind the lens, providing a solid mating with the outside case to ensure that heat can be bled into the surrounding water.

As weight is not too big a concern (bouyancy is not necessary so long as the light has a tether point where it can be tethered to my wrist or BCD jacket), there is no need to limit the number of batteries that go into the torch. 8 x 18650 batteries arranged in a 2x2x2 arrangement (long cylinder) should provide a nice 45mins of full-brightness run time for the P7s, providing that there is appropriate circuitry managing the power draw. I would need lots of advice on the best circuitry for such a light, as I have very limited knowledge in this area. The switch should be a reed switch, so that there is no need for a point of potential ingress.

Longer than 45 minutes run time should not be necessary although it would be nice. Dives are usually about an hour depending on depth, and you don't need the light for the first and last 5 minutes or so. I prefer easily accessible battery types, CR123A would be my first preference, but making a light that needed 16 of them is just silly. 18650 is my second choice as they are not too hard to find in a pinch, and I already have a good supply of them and a charger. Is this a good battery choice? Will 4x18650 work? How about 8xCR123A?

Does anyone have any advice on this crazy 6,300 lumen project? Should I be doing it myself or would I be better off giving my designs to a professional to make it for me? I have no access to CNC equipment, all parts and tools will need to be bought, so I don't know if this is a realistic project for me to even embark upon. Advice would be most appreciated!
 

Packhorse

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1st off ask yourself what you really want.
Do you want one of the brightest dive lights about or do you want one of the most practical?
A 7 multi die LED light will be huge. It will consume lots of power. It you want a focused beam it will need large reflectors. At least 35mm. So you light head is already 110mm wide. Thats big!
Making it out of titanium will be expensive. Why not use aluminium like everyone else?
Interchangeable LEDs is OK in theory but my guess is you would just be better off with a second dive light.
It sounds like you want an all in one unit. Whats wrong with a cannister light? It means a smaller light head and a bigger battery pack.

45 minute burn time? Are you serious? I wouldnt consider building a light with less than 2 hours run time. Thats enough for 2 average length dives. Better to have 3 hours so you have some reserve power. 45 minutes is just way to short. By the time your batteries are getting on a bit and its been a few days since they were charged you may only get 30 minutes or less from them.

Forget the CR123's. 18650's provide the best capacity vs size in any battery AFAIK. Although Ni Mh is still a good option.

My advice is start with some thing simple.
Try a P7 in a Mag lite head. Then maybe try 4 XR-E's in a maglite head useing aspherics. Thats where I am at the moment and its better in many regards than my mates 21watt salvo which is a hell of a light.
Check out some of the threads I have started and you should get some ideas.
 

Barbarin

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I would like to make the mother of all scuba lights, as I am tired of my little Princeton Tec Miniwave LED. I've just modified it to use 3 x P4 emitters, but it's still pretty weak compared to what I want.

What I would like is a light with 7 emitters (hex grid pattern), either P7s or MCEs, driven to their brightest levels. They should be focussed to a large hotspot, say 15 degree beam, allowing the use of smaller reflectors, keeping the head's size within manageable limits. Heat is not an issue, as long as the heat sink that the emitters are mounted on is mated to the housing. The water will keep them cool. A thermistor could protect the emitters from being left on while not in the water.

The big challenge is the housing and ensuring that it is mated to the LED heat sink. I was thinking of lathing the whole thing into a titanium tube using a lexan front lens. The light should have a pistol grip, as I prefer those to lantern grips. I have no idea how best to machine this to the main body of the light, but I'd like it to be detachable for compact storage.

The lamp assembly needs to be interchangeable and as simple as possible. This would be useful as different emitter tints are better for different water conditions, and I could have multiple lamp assemblies for different conditions. The lamp assembly should incorporate the LEDs and their reflectors and screw into the head behind the lens, providing a solid mating with the outside case to ensure that heat can be bled into the surrounding water.

As weight is not too big a concern (bouyancy is not necessary so long as the light has a tether point where it can be tethered to my wrist or BCD jacket), there is no need to limit the number of batteries that go into the torch. 8 x 18650 batteries arranged in a 2x2x2 arrangement (long cylinder) should provide a nice 45mins of full-brightness run time for the P7s, providing that there is appropriate circuitry managing the power draw. I would need lots of advice on the best circuitry for such a light, as I have very limited knowledge in this area. The switch should be a reed switch, so that there is no need for a point of potential ingress.

Longer than 45 minutes run time should not be necessary although it would be nice. Dives are usually about an hour depending on depth, and you don't need the light for the first and last 5 minutes or so. I prefer easily accessible battery types, CR123A would be my first preference, but making a light that needed 16 of them is just silly. 18650 is my second choice as they are not too hard to find in a pinch, and I already have a good supply of them and a charger. Is this a good battery choice? Will 4x18650 work? How about 8xCR123A?

Does anyone have any advice on this crazy 6,300 lumen project? Should I be doing it myself or would I be better off giving my designs to a professional to make it for me? I have no access to CNC equipment, all parts and tools will need to be bought, so I don't know if this is a realistic project for me to even embark upon. Advice would be most appreciated!

Take a look at the "Old painless" Maybe you can take some ideas.

Javier
 

Icarus

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What about the danger in using Li-ion cells in a dive light? :thinking:
I'm concerned about what will happen in case you get some water in it? :sick2:
 

Barbarin

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What about the danger in using Li-ion cells in a dive light? :thinking:
I'm concerned about what will happen in case you get some water in it? :sick2:

Near three years using Li-ION 18650's on thousands of diving flashlights, and 0 problems. Even on sea water flooded flashlights. In that case batteries get destroyed, there is pressure build up inside the battery tube, but not problem about that, once the flashlights have been designed to release gas before being opened, Of course the bodies are designed to stand pressure positive and negative.

Javier
 

MrNaz

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1st off ask yourself what you really want.
Do you want one of the brightest dive lights about or do you want one of the most practical?
A 7 multi die LED light will be huge. It will consume lots of power. It you want a focused beam it will need large reflectors. At least 35mm. So you light head is already 110mm wide. Thats big!
Making it out of titanium will be expensive. Why not use aluminium like everyone else?
Interchangeable LEDs is OK in theory but my guess is you would just be better off with a second dive light.
It sounds like you want an all in one unit. Whats wrong with a cannister light? It means a smaller light head and a bigger battery pack.

45 minute burn time? Are you serious? I wouldnt consider building a light with less than 2 hours run time. Thats enough for 2 average length dives. Better to have 3 hours so you have some reserve power. 45 minutes is just way to short. By the time your batteries are getting on a bit and its been a few days since they were charged you may only get 30 minutes or less from them.

Forget the CR123's. 18650's provide the best capacity vs size in any battery AFAIK. Although Ni Mh is still a good option.

My advice is start with some thing simple.
Try a P7 in a Mag lite head. Then maybe try 4 XR-E's in a maglite head useing aspherics. Thats where I am at the moment and its better in many regards than my mates 21watt salvo which is a hell of a light.
Check out some of the threads I have started and you should get some ideas.

I know that a 7 emitter P7 head will be large. That being said, it doesn't have to be too focused, I'd prefer to illuminate a large area close to my face rather than an object 20m away, so smaller collimators could be used instead of large reflectors.

You are right, 7 emitters maybe overkill. 4 x P7 or MCE emitters will output a lot of light if they are driven right. How would 4 x P7 or MCE emitters compare with a 24W HID light? If I'm going to go to this trouble I must absolutely, positively, have the brightest light in my dive group :devil:.

Anyway, I thought that the word "overkill" was a swear word on this forum? :grin2: I'm not too concerned with a head of ~120mm diameter, just for sizing I used a cover from a spindle of CDs, which was 125mm across and that's liveable. That being said, I don't need a focussed beam, I'd prefer a more floody light. I was thinking perhaps a cluster of collimators at 25mm would do, making for a more reasonable head at ~80mm diameter. If that's not possible, the perhaps I should revisit the 4 emitter design. Can you offer any input on how much light 4 emitters (either P7 C-bin or MCE) would put out if they were driven to their max rated output? Would they rival a 24W HID?

I've also sized out a cylinder which will hold a 2x2x2 array of 18650 batteries, and if that were stuck to my spindle cover, that light would be more than acceptible.

You're right about burn time, although I didn't think getting 2+ hours burn time on 7 x P7 emitters would be possible on a man-portable device. I'd be happy if 8 x 18650 batteries gave me one dive (60 minutes or so) and on the few occasions where I'd do more than one night dive in a single outing (very rare) I'd carry a second set. If I went for the 4-emitter design, then 8 x 18650 would give me a burn time ~2h.

So perhaps I can divide my project into two options

a) A large 6,300lm design:
7 emitters
At least 8 x 18650 batteries
~120mm dia head
~60 minutes burn time

b) A smaller "only" 3,600lm design:
4 emitters
8 x 18650 batteries
~50mm dia head
~120 minutes burn time

Perhaps the second one could be made in such a way that the heat could vent in air allowing for above water operation, although this is not important. 4 emitters and 8 batteries will definitely give me a decent runtime, at or over the 2 hour mark.

Other advantages of the second light would be the ability to use a single hipCC buck driver to drive all 4 emitters, reducing cost and complexity greatly.

What do you guys have to say about this? I prefer the 4 emitter design for practicality, but the sheer absurdity of having 6,300lm on hand makes me want to build that.

How bright can I expect a 4 x MCE/P7 light to be? Also, what's the best way to plan the build? How do I go about getting the body and head assemblies machined?
 
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Packhorse

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salvovsaspheric.jpg


Thats a 21watt Salvo on the left and 4 Q5's using aspherics on the right.

Now you could use P7's instead but your beam will be more spread out and so diluted. I doubt you will get as bright a hot spot.
Infact if you compare the beams in the next image the Q5 (top) appears brighter than the P7(centre). (10watt HID left 4 x Q5 aspherics right)
4lights.jpg


Flood type lights are pretty crap for diving IMHO. especially in low viz conditions. They dont penetrate very well and cause lots of back scatter further reducing viz. On the other hand they are great for video work in good viz.

I think you are getting caught up in the whole bigger is better thing. But this is simply not true in a dive light. You have already said you dont have access to CNC. What about a lathe? If not how are you going to build it?
Getting someone else to do it will cost you big time. Once again I come back to a maglite head. All you need is simple tools that you would already have. You may even be able to squeez 3 P7s with reflector into one.
 
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drewskey

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Once again I come back to a maglite head. All you need is simple tools that you would already have. You may even be able to squeez 3 P7s with reflector into one.

Agreed. The fellow wanted absurdity, I showed absurdity. I believe that light is used for video.

P4 Tri-Star Heatsink for Maglite C 4Sevens.Com While I am not familiar w/the difference in stars sizes between the P4 and P7, this would at least be a start.
 

MrNaz

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I think you are getting caught up in the whole bigger is better thing. But this is simply not true in a dive light. You have already said you dont have access to CNC. What about a lathe? If not how are you going to build it?
Getting someone else to do it will cost you big time. Once again I come back to a maglite head. All you need is simple tools that you would already have. You may even be able to squeez 3 P7s with reflector into one.

Perhaps I am.

If you can get that light out of a 4 x Q5 array, then perhaps I should have a look at my Miniwave again. I have 3 x P4 emitters in it, perhaps I could get better value out of it by changing the resistor or getting a buck driver instead.

I don't know what bin my P4s are, how would I go about finding out? How then would I decide the best way to wire them up? They are mounted on a PCB in parallel, so I guess a 3.7v driver putting out 3A would be a good start, but I don't know if such a thing exists other than the hipCC which would be too expensive a part for this use. Any ideas on how to improve the output coming out of this light?
 

Packhorse

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The reason mine is so bright is because it is so tightly focused. Its about 8 deg with minimal spill.

Im also over driving them at 1400ma which increases the output at the cost of life span.

If you can try adding one of the aspheric lenses I used in my light over one of your P4's. This way you will get a nice spot but still some flood from the others. Or perhaps try 2 aspherics or even 3. How big is the lens in the miniwave? It may be too small.
You could try changing the P4s for a better bin but my guess is there will not be all that much difference. Im not sure the miniwave would be a good candidate for further mods.
 

MrNaz

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The reason mine is so bright is because it is so tightly focused. Its about 8 deg with minimal spill.

Im also over driving them at 1400ma which increases the output at the cost of life span.

If you can try adding one of the aspheric lenses I used in my light over one of your P4's. This way you will get a nice spot but still some flood from the others. Or perhaps try 2 aspherics or even 3. How big is the lens in the miniwave? It may be too small.
You could try changing the P4s for a better bin but my guess is there will not be all that much difference. Im not sure the miniwave would be a good candidate for further mods.

I have a few questions:

When you say aspheric, do you mean parabolic? From high school I remember that parabolic and spherical lenses were the most useful for imaging and optics. Is that the case?

You suggest a mag head. How would that work for waterproofing? The reason I thought the Miniwave was a good candidate is that the lamp assembly is removable and so I can work on it without risking compromising the body or seals.

Also, you say that a MCE can't be focussed due to the large die size, but Cutter has some optics for the MCE that can do a tight beam. This page has a 10deg collimator and a 5deg reflctor, both designed for the MCE:

http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=47

Would there be any problems using those parts to put together a dive light with a focussed beam using one or more MCE emitters?
 

Leons_Bad_Side

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I'm also interested in a good dive light. I have some good information on modding one of the Intova torch dive lights. They are good to 100meters I think and put out decent light out of the box. The information I have includes a mod that will turn it into a dual mode high powered light using different batteries, leds, and driver. My biggest hurdle right now is the information I have is incomplete. I have information on the batteries and leds but not which driver was used for the mod. It supposedly will put out aprox 900 lumins on high and about 225 lumins on low. I'm pretty new to the idea of modding flashlights so if anyone has any ideas for a good driver to help. I wouldn't have any problems sharing any of the info I have.
 

Leons_Bad_Side

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I got some driver info for my first light project if anyone is interested. I'll post a list of the parts needed this afternoon. It's not the driver I was initially interested in but it will get me started anyway.
 

Packhorse

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Hmm, sounds like its a P7 mod.
I tried a P7 mod on a IST light which is very similar to the Intova. Wasnt all that impressed to be honest. Infact the Q5 aspheric blew it away. Tighter beam, brighter spot, longer run time!
 

Leons_Bad_Side

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Yes it's a P7. I'm very new to this and this is my very first flashlight mod attempt. It won't be my last and I'm sure that I'll try some others and become more educated in the process.
 

darkman0101

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Jul 2, 2008
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I've heard that some people have had issues getting some of the Intova lights open (and that they perhaps started gluing the heads on to stop people modding them).

Did you have any issues getting the head off your Intova? Was it one of the ones that you find on ebay?
 
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