Surefire 6P/Malkoff M60 "Gap"

ferretray

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jul 6, 2007
Messages
41
I just installed a Malkoff M60 in my SF 6P and have the infamous "Gap" between the body/head.
I searched through hundreds of threads and found a good one describing a fix. The poster did some sanding on the M60. Unfortunately, the pictures that showed where to sand on the M60 are no longer available on the thread (Photobucket).
Do any of you folks have a picture or drawing showing WHERE to remove metal on the M60 to "Close the gap".
Thanks in advance, Ray
 

Sgt. LED

Flashaholic
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
7,486
Location
Chesapeake, Ohio
At the very bottom of it where it meets the epoxied in spring.

Reduce the diameter a tad AND shorten it a touch if the gap bothers you.

BE VERY VERY CAREFULL!!!!! Once you remove too much material it's pretty much shot.

Do it a little at a time and test for fit!
 

copperfox

Enlightened
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
774
Location
RI
Why yes I do! :D


m60_gap_fixed.jpg
 

Yoda4561

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Messages
1,265
Location
Florida, U.S.A.
Just go slow and if you remove a little too much, and the module becomes loose, don't panic. There's a number of easy fixes involving aluminum foil/desoldering braid/wire loops that many use on a normal basis in both original and modified surefire bodies to ensure perfect contact.
 

DimmerD

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
317
Location
Clinton Louisiana
I seem to remember someone saying it was better to leave the gap as it actually gives better contact for heat sinking purposes that way. I never really understood the reasoning behind it but it was from one of the regulars here who is well trusted, don't remember which one as there are too many.
 

kyhunter1

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
1,502
Location
South East KY
Removed.

I seem to remember someone saying it was better to leave the gap as it actually gives better contact for heat sinking purposes that way. I never really understood the reasoning behind it but it was from one of the regulars here who is well trusted, don't remember which one as there are too many.
 
Last edited:

DimmerD

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
317
Location
Clinton Louisiana
By leaving the gap, you ensure that the module has 100% contact with the light body tube. This is to ensure the heat sinking capability of the module that it was designed for. Gene made it this way for the same reason. If too much metal is taken off, the module want heat sink correctly and my suffer damage. If the gap is 1mm or less, you are better off leaving it.

Ah cool, thanks. Just wanted it to be clear before people go sanding down possibly un-necessarily.
 

Justin Case

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,797
By leaving the gap, you ensure that the module has 100% contact with the light body tube. This is to ensure the heat sinking capability of the module that it was designed for. Gene made it this way for the same reason. If too much metal is taken off, the module want heat sink correctly and my suffer damage. If the gap is 1mm or less, you are better off leaving it.

This doesn't make sense to me, based on observation of how my M30 fits inside the top of a SureFire body.

The M30 brass heat sink is cylindrical at the top nearest the optic. It then tapers for a bit, and then becomes a narrower cylinder shape again. The topmost cylindrical section fits the cylindrical shape of the SF 6P neck, regardless of any grinding off of the bottom edge of the Malkoff body. That section is about 14mm long and represents the majority of the thermal contact between the brass heat sink and the SF flashlight body, so removing some material from the drop-in so that the bezel screws down the last 1mm seems inconsequential.

The bottom of the drop-in contacts the bottom of the SF 6P neck. In an old-style round body 6P, the lamp "well" at the neck is completely cylindrical and ends with an unanodized ledge. Normally, that's where the P60 incandescent lamp's outer spring makes ground contact. That wide ledge contacts the bottom face of the Malkoff drop-in, preventing the drop-in from going downward any farther. For the round body 6P, you get a large gap of ~2.5mm.

In a new version 6P body, the "well" has a different shape and allows the Malkoff to sit a little lower down in the body. But apparently there is enough manufacturing variation that sometimes you still get a small gap.

In my "parts" 3P, which uses an old-style LU60 (which essentially has the internal shape of a weaponlight), my Malkoff M30 fits without any gap and without need of the beryllium copper ring, another indication of manufacturing tolerance producing different results for different people.

However, in all cases, simple observation shows that most of the thermal contact between the Malkoff brass heat sink and the flashlight body occurs at the larger diameter cylindrical section of the brass. If I ground the bottom edge of the Malkoff a bit, in fact I think that the thermal contact would increase because instead of a thin edge of brass touching the bottom of the well, more of the drop-in would now contact the flashlight body at the sides of the narrower diameter cylindrical section.

The thermal contact for all of these 6P drop-ins can be vastly improved by wrapping a little bit of metal foil around the drop-in body to make more intimate contact with the flashlight well.
 
Last edited:

etc

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
5,777
Location
Northern Virginia
+1 to the above.

I filed my M60 for a perfect fit in Leef body but it started to rattle in standard Surefire 9P body. No problem here as I never use it anyway.

Alum foil is another good idea.

Also, don't use a file. I used sand paper. Took me a while but it's much more precise. the metal is not that hard.
 

copperfox

Enlightened
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
774
Location
RI
Any aftermarket product meant to replace a stock component will sometimes, no matter how high quality it may be, require modification to suit your particular requirements. Gene has said (but I would appreciate if he could once again clear this up for us) that the brass modules he creates for Surefires are made to accommodate the variations in tolerances between the hosts than can accept this style drop-in. The reason for this is obvious: if the module is ever-so-slightly too tall, such as in my case, it will still function properly, and will simply leave a small gap between the head and the body when assembled. However, if the module is ever-so-slightly too short, some users will get rattling or intermittent electrical contact, which is clearly unacceptable. To err on the side of being too large is only a cosmetic risk, but to err on the side of being too small is, in some cases, a serious functional problem. From a business standpoint of providing nearly universal customer satisfaction, Gene has done exactly what he should have done.

About heatsinking -- for my 6PD body and hand made M60, there is an air gap between the module and the body when it is inserted. This is easily seen and can be demonstrated by shaking the body with the module resting atop. The module will rattle slightly because the OD of the module is not close enough to the ID of the body to make it fit snugly. Furthermore, the bottom lip of the module is resting unevenly on the lip inside the body, and the top lip of the module sits above the top of the body threads. The bottom lip of the module is meant to touch the inner lip of the body to provide electrical contact. In my sample, the bottom lip of the drop-in was very slightly smaller in diameter than the lip it is meant to rest on. This causes only approximately half of the module's bottom lip to contact the body's lip. To improve the electrical contact, the two peices should mate around the entire circumference of the lip. This is exactly what I did by creating a round chamfer of the bottom edge of the module. This allows the module to sit a little more than 0.5mm inside the lip. In your mind, picture a raquet ball sitting atop a paper towel tube. The larger diameter of the round object contacts the top "ring" of the cylinder all the way around the circumference.

In summary, rounding the bottom edge of the Malkoff drop-in will not interfere with heatsinking and will actually improve the electrical contact to the surefire body.

Like other users have already stated, if you are primarly concerned with heatsinking, then wrapping the module with aluminum foil is a pretty good idea.

Read about it here: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=204515
 

kramer5150

Flashaholic
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
6,328
Location
Palo Alto, CA
I seem to remember someone saying it was better to leave the gap as it actually gives better contact for heat sinking purposes that way. I never really understood the reasoning behind it but it was from one of the regulars here who is well trusted, don't remember which one as there are too many.

It was Gene himself who confirmed why he designed the modules for a small gap. IIRC it wasn't so much for thermal conductivity, but more to ensure reliable electrical contact over the production population.
 

etc

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2004
Messages
5,777
Location
Northern Virginia
It all makes sense. M60 has to be one-size-fits-all. Therefore sometimes it doesn't fit perfectly but works every time. I had to file mine and it's nice. I did get intermittent contact problem in a bigger 2x18650 Leef body but alum paper fixed it. (I am not sure if that intermittent contact problem was there *before* filing)
 

DimmerD

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
317
Location
Clinton Louisiana
Well it seems most of the contact is in the tube and not the head, right? Then why did SF start using aluminum heads on their G2's, something else that doesn't quite make sense, to me anyway. I guess I am missing something other than just my hair!:eek:
 

Gene43

Enlightened
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
835
Location
South Alabama
Any aftermarket product meant to replace a stock component will sometimes, no matter how high quality it may be, require modification to suit your particular requirements. Gene has said (but I would appreciate if he could once again clear this up for us) that the brass modules he creates for Surefires are made to accommodate the variations in tolerances between the hosts than can accept this style drop-in. The reason for this is obvious: if the module is ever-so-slightly too tall, such as in my case, it will still function properly, and will simply leave a small gap between the head and the body when assembled. However, if the module is ever-so-slightly too short, some users will get rattling or intermittent electrical contact, which is clearly unacceptable. To err on the side of being too large is only a cosmetic risk, but to err on the side of being too small is, in some cases, a serious functional problem. From a business standpoint of providing nearly universal customer satisfaction, Gene has done exactly what he should have done.

+1:twothumbs

Thanks, Gene
 

kramer5150

Flashaholic
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
6,328
Location
Palo Alto, CA
Well it seems most of the contact is in the tube and not the head, right? Then why did SF start using aluminum heads on their G2's, something else that doesn't quite make sense, to me anyway. I guess I am missing something other than just my hair!:eek:


... because the base part of the P60L insulates rather than conducts. The P60L is plastic and a large spring that contacts the body. It does not provide a direct thermal conduction path from the LED to the body.

The only place heat can go is up through the reflector and out the bezel.

a bit OT...:sssh:
Thats also why (IMHO) we are not going to see a ~200 torch lumen P61L in the same form-factor as the current P60L any time soon. The heat generated by even the coolest running emitters at ~200 torch Lumens is enough to overheat the emitter surface. SF would have to design a module that conducts heat from the LED to flashlight body via direct surface contact. There was a thread some time ago stating that this kind of design is patented Gene malkoff.
 
Last edited:

Search

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
1,779
Location
West Tn
I planned on buying a 6P to put an M60 in. I am curious to know if the "gap" has any affect when the bezel is screwed on. I mean, if it doesn't, then who really cares.

Sorry, couldn't find pictures of a light with the "gap" and the bezel on.
 

JNewell

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Messages
1,800
Location
Land of the Bean and the Cod
I planned on buying a 6P to put an M60 in. I am curious to know if the "gap" has any affect when the bezel is screwed on. I mean, if it doesn't, then who really cares.

Sorry, couldn't find pictures of a light with the "gap" and the bezel on.

Negative, the gap is small and in any case the bezel/tube contact is sealed with an o-ring. The only "issue" is that it may collect a little dust.

Further to what was pointed out above, btw, remember that the 6P-size lights have been in production for a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnng time. I don't know this for a fact, but I'd be surprised if there haven't been some variations over time, which is what the slight over-length of the M60 addresses.

I have an M60, and M60F and an M60LF. These things are just plain awesome, and I do have quite a few others to compare 'em to! :laughing:
 

kramer5150

Flashaholic
Joined
Sep 6, 2005
Messages
6,328
Location
Palo Alto, CA
I planned on buying a 6P to put an M60 in. I am curious to know if the "gap" has any affect when the bezel is screwed on. I mean, if it doesn't, then who really cares.

Sorry, couldn't find pictures of a light with the "gap" and the bezel on.

With the 6Ps and M60s I have played with, Its a cosmetic thing. It looks like the bezel is loose and not tightened all the way.
 

jimmy1970

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
Messages
1,048
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I've got two 6P's with Malkoff's and the gap is exactly the same on both. The gap is so small that its barely visable. I personally wouldn't bother sanding down the Malkoff. I think it might also affect resale.

James....
 
Top