Any Ultralight Backpakers onboard?

hi all!

I need some advice on Ultralite Shleter making....I cannot be a member of any relative forum (too little time available) so..
I was wondering if we have members onboard with the proper knowledge/experience that can devote some PMs to help me out with some construction details...

For reference I wish to make an emergency shelter the form of a "Coglans Tube Tent" out of silnylon but with some features added...

Thanks beforehand, Kostas

I've often wished for an improved version of that emergency tube tent. I think it needs to be a foot longer and it definitely needs something to secure the open ends. My idea would be to have overlapping flaps that secured with small button sized neodymium magnets.

There are some good tarp shelter ideas over at www.equipped.org. Click on the "Gear & Equipment" link on the left side column and scroll down to "Shelter and Personal Protection Group". There's lots of good information on Mr. Doug Ritter's website.

A nice little bivy tent I own and like is the Nemo GoGo. It uses an inflatable air beam instead of shock corded poles.

Google "silnylon tarp plans" and you will find various plans for all different types of shelters. I have made a silnylon tarp/poncho before, I just looked at a bunch of different ideas online and made something that kinda took the best ideas of each one.

it's pretty simple and self expanatory, so I don't know if I can offer much advice. Basically you just take a piece of material and sew it up. FYI, I'm not much of an ultralighter, but I was trying to cut down as much weight wherever I could. Some ideas were useful, but on others I found out I'd prefer to carry the extra weight.

well...

I know of Ritters site and it does not cover me..

I have allready the design I wish to make, but I need to work out the details cos fabric must be imported and someone else will do the sewing. One mistake on either cases and ....

Issues I wanr covered are:
How do i make to independednt zippers mate to a waterproof seal?
How can i make waterproof seams and include tying straps too
and so on...

Later on I will be including a rough scetch of my design when I finish my onternet chores....

till then, Kostas

Check out http://www.backpacking.net and http://www.practicalbackpacking.com

in the mean time I made the scetch



so it is a triangular tube tent that can be infolded to become a tarp or a lean-to with walls.
Red and Green lines are the zippers...



and this is how I will be sewing the zipper...This way there will be a small protective ledge at the zipped sides

And I have another problem....how to find a waterproof light fabric taht is also reflective in the enterior...
(the desperate solution is to canabilize and Adventure medical Thermolite 2.0 Bivvy)

Comments are welcomed....

This place sells waterproof zippers and stuff for making your own gear.

http://thru-hiker.com/materials/zipper.php

But you could probably get away with using regular zippers if you design it right.

I'm not sure if I understand the whole concept on your lean-to idea with the additional walls. How is it supported? will you need multiple lines to hold it up? If you want to just use it as a regular tarp, do you just leave the sides hanging? Once you start going beyond a basic tarp and adding things like zippers, extra walls, straps, etc, the weight starts adding really quick. If this is inteneded as an emergency shelter, you probably want to keep it as simple and versatile as possible.

I kinda gave up on the tarp idea after a few tries, by the time you take into account the weight of the tarp, groundcloth, bivy, and trekking poles and lines needed to keep it up, you could just carry a lightweight (<2lb) tent. It's quicker and easier to set up, more durable, more comfortable, and a lot more weatherproof for about the same amount of weight

Your idea has a similar shape and design to what I currently use, except mine has mosquito netting, descent ventilation, and is easy to get in and out of. By the looks of your drawing, you want to have the ends closed up while the shelter still has a floor as the same piece. Currently made tarp tents need that gap near the ground for ventilation, otherwise you suffocate. Even with limited ventilation, silicon nylon is very waterproof. Your condensation builds up quickly and then rains down on you. I have experience trying to use silicon nylon as a floor, and I've got to tell you that it doesn't work well. It's too slippery and you'll be sliding all over the place while trying to sleep. I learned these things using a Integral Designs Silshelter with a Silponcho for the floor. With that design, It looks like you either have to have a guyline on each end attached to a trekking pole to keep the tent up or have a door on each end halfway closed and staked down there. The latter will make it harder to get you and your gear in and out.

My current setup is a Integral Designs Bug Tent and two Integral Designs Silponchos. I sewed velcro to one 8 foot side of each poncho so they attach together for a roughly 8 foot by 10 foot tarp, the size of tarp the bug tent was designed for. The bug tent has a bathtub floor that goes up about a foot giving a windbreak from all directions while you're laying down asleep. This also gives plenty of ventilation to avoid condensation and allows strong winds to blow through without knocking down the shelter. If it's raining when I have to pack up and leave, I can fold up the bug tent while keeping my gear sheltered with the ponchos and then have myself and a friend put on the ponchos over our packs and leave with all dry gear. Since you should carry a poncho backpacking anyway, and the second person that sleeps in the tent carries the other one, the added pack weight of the tent ends up being a little over 1.5 pounds. Trekking poles are used as tent poles and help you when hiking, ponchos are essential gear anyway, and you're left with 26.5 ounces for the bug tent and 1.5 ounces for 6 titanium tent stakes. Total added weight of tent is 28 ounces for 2 people. This setup gives you no slippery floors, no condensation problems, no bugs, ponchos can be buttoned the other way for emergency bivy sacks, and Multiple setup options (ponchos, bivies, 2 person bivy, sunshade/cook area shelter, bug tent, full tent, ground sheet). The only drawback of my setup is that the seam between the two ponchos has to stay to the side to keep rain from getting in.

You might also want to consider the new MSR E-House.

http://www.msrgear.com/tents/ehouse.asp

kosPap,
In what conditions will you be using this shelter?
Is it meant primarily for protection from the elements or does privacy factor in?

Most of my experience is Western US and Sierra Nevada Mountains. For 3 season use, I have always found a separate tarp and ground sheet to be lighter in weight and infinitely more useful than any other shelter solution. The few exceptions being unrelenting bugs, never ending rain, extreme cold (every calorie is precious), and crowded campgrounds, where the added weight of a tent might help.

My experience with the "tube" is as follows: the tube tent presents greater condensation issues than a plain tarp shelter. Also, the sewn-in floor of the "tube" does a fine job of containing dripping condensation and spilt liquids. A tarp/groundsheet combo makes these issues more manageable.

With regard to construction, the tarp may be slightly easier to sew. If you have any specific construction questions I'm happy to share my experiences with you.

Good luck with your project!

Etowah Outfitters makes stuff for backpackers. Among their products are some ultralight tarps. They come in both normal and weird (specialty) shapes.

LowBat said:

You might also want to consider the new MSR E-House.

http://www.msrgear.com/tents/ehouse.asp

Click to expand...

That looks just like what the O.P. wanted until I looked closer. It says it's a Silnylon tarp, but it also states that the seams are taped. You can't tape the seams of a silicon impregnated ripstop nylon tarp. It's too slippery. You have to use a silicon based seam sealer. That tent obviously has to be a silicon coated tarp. Here are the differences: Silicon impregnated nylon costs more, the waterproof properties don't degrade over time, it stretches under a lot of stress instead of tearing, and most importantly, it doesn't let water through when you touch the fabric. In an ultralight shelter supported by poles, it is almost impossible to not touch the sides. That shelter will probably get you wet as soon as you touch the fabric while it's raining. I'd suggest the O.P. keep looking or make one himself.

Hooked on Fenix said:

That looks just like what the O.P. wanted until I looked closer. It says it's a Silnylon tarp, but it also states that the seams are taped. You can't tape the seams of a silicon impregnated ripstop nylon tarp. It's too slippery. You have to use a silicon based seam sealer. That tent obviously has to be a silicon coated tarp. Here are the differences: Silicon impregnated nylon costs more, the waterproof properties don't degrade over time, it stretches under a lot of stress instead of tearing, and most importantly, it doesn't let water through when you touch the fabric. In an ultralight shelter supported by poles, it is almost impossible to not touch the sides. That shelter will probably get you wet as soon as you touch the fabric while it's raining. I'd suggest the O.P. keep looking or make one himself.

Click to expand...

Hmmm.... do you think my Nemo Gogo bivy would let water in too? I haven't used it yet.

thank you all for your valuable insight....

My primary uses will be.

1. tarp and lean-to when camping (that is why I need it reflective, to get back warmth from a camp fire)
2. emergency shelter during Em-Comm (amateur radio volunteer work for this not in the loop)
3. emergency shelter in general (1 day trip gone sour)

All possible uses include woods or urban/farm areas...And there is NO land in Greece that has does not have a 2-3 foot thing to tie to...BTW it is not meant for thru-hiking

Regarding condesation...I know about it. This is why that the side zippers zip up to the tent point and I can always leave the ground zipper (the green one in the scetch) un zipped...

Of course my options are open to flooring materials...

Also how about this thing canabilized for the 2 sides? http://www.adventuremedicalkits.com/review-popup.php?product=&review=62

Thank you, Kostas

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/index.html

These guys do hikes with sub 12lb packs...in cold weather.

Sil-nylon tarps by Integral Designs, Golite, and Mountain Laurel Designs...

You can get great, light, and packable insulating clothing and sleeping bags/quilts that will keep you warm so you don't need to have as big of a fire.

May also want to consider a hammock as it keeps you off of the ground and is available in ultra-light configurations.

http://hennessyhammock.com/

If you plan to use the shelter near a fire, I strongly advise you to use something besides silicon impregnated ripstop nylon to construct your shelter. This material is flammable and doesn't have the fire retardent properties of regular or coated ripstop nylon or polyester. I don't want you to be burned alive while sleeping under it. For that application, you need polyurathane or silicon coated fabrics. They will weigh more, but they won't put your life in danger.

Hooked on Fenix said:

If you plan to use the shelter near a fire, I strongly advise you to use something besides silicon impregnated ripstop nylon to construct your shelter. This material is flammable and doesn't have the fire retardent properties of regular or coated ripstop nylon or polyester. I don't want you to be burned alive while sleeping under it. For that application, you need polyurathane or silicon coated fabrics. They will weigh more, but they won't put your life in danger.

Click to expand...

Very good point.

http://www.owfinc.com/Zippers/zippers1.asp
These folks sell #5 Coil Uretek (water resistant) Slider large hole ST zippers by the foot. Colors include Black, Desert Tan, Foliage, Lt Tan, Moss, ODST $.32 per foot.
They also have silicone seam sealing stuff:http://www.owfinc.com/Hardware/Shardware/seamgrip.asp

1.1 oz silnylon is nice and light while having sufficient strength to deal with most 3 season conditions. While the fabric is fairly strong, all tie-points should be reinforced with a swatch of strong fabric (preferably made of similar material). When sewing, I've found 10 to 12 stitches (thread) per inch to be strongest. Polyester thread will provide the strongest seams. While reinforcing seams and tie-downs, avoid excessive double and triple stiching of the fabric in any one place - this will weaken the light weight nylon. Seam sealer will keep the thread from unravelin. For waterproofing the final product, tie the tarp in a stretched position, seal, and let dry. This prevents the silicone sealer from coming loose when the tarp is stretched during use.

With regard to reflectivity, I haven't seen an aluminized fabric available by the yard in over 20 years. The coatings were not very durable and the increased weight was not sufficiently offset by reflective performance. You could make yourself a snug fitting vest or wind shirt out of something like a lightweight pertex fabric that would provide more warmth than anything your tarp could reflect, and you would be able to take that heat with you as you walk around camp away from the tarp. Choose a light colored silnylon and you will gain some reflectivity.
I've made a 2 ounce vest out of aluminized material (similar to aluminized emergency blankets). It's really overkill in most situations, but it's a reassuring 2 oz when I'm far from civilization in winter or shoulder season.

http://www.owareusa.com/ Here is a source for $5 a yard silnylon in limited colors.

Or you could try here for one stop shopping for any type of fabric you choose, thread, zippers, no-seeum mesh (if you choose), etc.
http://seattlefabrics.com/products.html

I hope your final product works out the way you want. Instead of trying to sew reflective material into the fabric, which may be flammable, you may want to just carry an emergency blanket for the purpose of using it near a fire. One only weighs a few extra ounces. I respect your attempt to make a shelter as versatile as possible. I just can't think of a single fabric that will work for everything you want it to. Good luck on this project. It may take a little trial and error to obtain a working end product, but it should be fun.