Lumens and actual difference in output

HEDP

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Wondering how large of a difference in lumens you need to be a noticeable and negligible difference.



Example:



You'd notice the difference between a 170 lumen light and a 290 lumen light.



But not a noticeable difference in a 210 lumen light and a 270 lumen light.




Does anyone know?




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Marduke

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It takes approximately twice the brightness to appear "noticeably" brighter. It takes approximately four times the brightness to appear twice as bright.

That is a general rule of thumb. I'm sure someone will come along and give you the equation for the actual logarithmic curve of human perception of brightness.
 

Mjolnir

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The difference in apparent brightness is some sort of log graph, I believe. However, this is really only true for lights with the exact same beam pattern. What you are seeing in the beam is lux, while lumens is the total amount of light ouput by the LED. If the beams have hotspots of different sizes, then you can't directly compare lumens. Unless, of course, you are comparing different modes on the exact same light.
If you do a ceiling bounce test, however, you can better see the differences in brightness between lights , since the light is diffused, which takes the beam profile pretty much out of the equation.
 

HEDP

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It takes approximately twice the brightness to appear "noticeably" brighter. It takes approximately four times the brightness to appear twice as bright.

That is a general rule of thumb. I'm sure someone will come along and give you the equation for the actual logarithmic curve of human perception of brightness.




So a difference in 220 and 280 lumens would not be noticeable?



You flashlight of 220 lumens would need another flashlight to be 440 lumens to appear noticeably brighter? Or am I wrong?



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richardcpf

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I have the WF-1000L which claims to put 900 lumens and It only seems twice as bright as my Jet III pro.

A good way to figure out aproximate lumens difference between 2 lights is to see both hotspot size and how intense they are when shinning at the same distance.
 

Mjolnir

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Well a DX P7 light probably won't be putting out 900 lumens either way; it is probably around 400-500.
 

HEDP

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I have the WF-1000L which claims to put 900 lumens and It only seems twice as bright as my Jet III pro.

A good way to figure out aproximate lumens difference between 2 lights is to see both hotspot size and how intense they are when shinning at the same distance.





This would be hard for me, since I would have to actually own both lights. But I understand your method.


Your WF-1000L is 900 lumens, how many lumens is your Jet III Pro supposed to be?



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HEDP

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Here's a very good article about LED flashlights and their relative power characteristics from RA Clicky. Keep reading, the last couple of pages are the most relevant.

http://www.ralights.com/Articles/LedFlashlightWhitePaper.pdf





Wow, that was complicated. Thanks. Lot of math for a guy who couldn't pass the community college entrance math test 3 times. lol



I wonder what he meant in layman's terms.



I do understand what he said about having a lower light that lasts longer, since your eyes adjust to the lower level anyway.




He also said to have a broader beam for general use and a more pointed beam for looking at far distances which sounds plausible.

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travelinman

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Well, I'm pretty much a newby here, but life has taught me there's no such thing as a perfect _______________ (insert your choice of toy/person etc.) for everyone!
 

StarHalo

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For the layman/novice flashaholic:

There are a bunch of different variables that play into "brightness", but keeping it in layman's terms, you can boil it down to the beam profile of the light and percentages.

The beam profile (how the light looks on a white wall) can make a light seem much brighter or dimmer depending on how it's arranged. A good way to visualize this is a garden hose: Let's say you turn on your garden hose spigot to 25%, and holding the hose in your hand you just let the water fall freely from the nozzle. Then you put your thumb over the nozzle - now the pressurized water streams far out and away rapidly. In which instance was there a greater amount of water? The answer is of course that there was the same amount/flow of water for both examples, the spigot was always at 25%, you merely changed how it came out of the nozzle. Conceptually, this works with light also; you can let light flow out broadly in a nearby flood, or you can compact it into a far-throwing narrow stream - the stream can seem brighter to the eye just because it goes farther and/or has a more intense beam profile.

This matters in flashlights because a light that's a "thrower" will always seem brighter than a "flooder". A good example would be if you had a Maglite that was perfectly focused for a nice, intense hotspot. You note how bright this looks on a white wall, then remove the head from the Mag entirely and shine it at the wall again - now the wall is completely dim. In which configuration did the Mag output more lumens? Again, it was the same, the light bulb put out the exact same amount of light for each test.

So now that we know the eye can be easily fooled just by how a flashlight throws light, we must devise a way to gauge *total output*, not just the output in one small area. This test is called ceiling bounce.

When you shine a flashlight at the ceiling of a darkened room, the room as you see it is now lit only by the *total output* of that light - you've removed the element of beam profile and can now see, at least roughly, how much light is being emitted. The test goes something like this; Standing in a pitch black room with two flashlights you want to compare, you shine the first light at the ceiling - you have to shine it in such a way that you can't see the end of the flashlight itself or the beam profile, so pointing it up next to your ear works nicely. Now you're seeing the room lit by the total output of that light. Next, close your eyes, turn off or cover light one and switch to light two, and open your eyes - is the room brighter or dimmer? The answer will reveal which light has more *lumens* regardless of *throw*. (This method works very quickly and decisively when the two lights are more than 20% disparate, below that and you may need to view the room for a full minute or so and then switch lights to catch the tiny discrepancies.)

And speaking of percentages, they're something you have to take into consideration when looking a lumen numbers. Your 220 vs 280 example can be used here - Let's say you're outdoors on a moonless night, and you turn on a 220 lumen light; it will appear very bright and you'll be able to light your way easily. So then you increase your light output to 280 lumens, that's just a little bit brighter, enough that you notice a marginal difference. But here's the kicker - let's say in the same situation, you instead have only a 1 lumen keychain light; on fully-dark adjusted eyes, this is actually "about right" for getting around, and you can navigate fine. But then you increase your light output to 2 lumens, and WOW, that's much brighter, what a difference! Why is 1 vs 2 such a profound difference over 220 vs 280? Percentages - 280 is only 27% brighter than 220, so that's a small difference. But 2 is TWICE/100% over 1, so there's literally twice as much light. Tiny number differences make big percieved differences at the low end of the scale, but not at all on the upper end.
 
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I think this whole theory has a massive flaw.

Plenty of people, myself included, have convinced ourselves that we can see a difference in lumens even when this rule says we can't.
 

Howecollc

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You will see a noticeable difference in output between a Surefire light of a given size, and a light of similar size from any another manufacturer.

Run with this statement, haters.
 

Zatoichi

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That isn't always the case, and when it is the difference can be either way.
 

travelinman

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Also don't forget we shouldn't be talking about just plain lumens. We should be talking about Lumens per square meter, or lumens per square foot, or lumins per square centimeter.

Without the area covered, the measurement is meaningless, like talking about speed without mentioning the time factor, eg: I was going 90 miles. When you mean 90 miles per hour.

Just like the Texan and the Alaskan bragging about how big their state is. The Texan said "my ranch is so big I could get in my pickup and drive all day and still be on my own land". The Alaskan said " yah, I once had a pickup like that"
 

asdalton

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Also don't forget we shouldn't be talking about just plain lumens. We should be talking about Lumens per square meter, or lumens per square foot, or lumins per square centimeter.

Lumens/m^2 is lux (the physical quantity is illuminance), which just gives the intensity of incident light at a given point. Illuminance is relatively easy to measure with a light meter. It is mainly useful for comparing the relative intensities of different flashlight beams at a given distance.

Neither lumens nor lux is the "right" measurement to use; they each measure different things.
 

asdalton

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The important thing to understand with light is that your eyes are sensitive to ratios of output rather than differences. The exact ratio (2, 4, etc.) is not important. So if someone were to ask, "Is a difference of 50 lumens significant?" there is no way to answer unless you first know the absolute output in lumens that you are comparing to.

To my eyes, a doubling of lumens really does look twice as bright. But I need something like 3x-4x to make a difference in the practical usefulness of a beam.
 

Pontiaker

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I dont even bother with what is written about your eye can only see this or that. I compare two lights side by side, and you can tell the difference bewteen small lumen increases. I had a Fenix PD20 and compared several lights to it. I would carry a light with the same or very close lumen rating but I could tell everytime I used it its not as bright as the PD20 even though it was only rated like 10 lumen less than the Fenix. When you pull out the slightly brighter light you KNOW its brighter. Side by side you can TELL its brighter, even between small lumen differences. After reading the actual lumen output of these lights I have used and carried on the sticky above it just confirms what I have already found, you CAN see the difference in small lumen differences.
 

Pontiaker

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You will see a noticeable difference in output between a Surefire light of a given size, and a light of similar size from any another manufacturer.

Run with this statement, haters.
Yeah your right most of my lights the same size as the SF are way brighter than the SF. The only reason I buy an SF anymore is for host parts!:devil:
 
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