Ideal WeaponLight- Anyone make this

Luke_Y · Mar 18, 2009

First off, this would be "ideal" for this particular weapon and for this particular user. I know everyone's "ideal" is not the same. My standard answer and my preferred light for a carbine is a Surefire Scout Light setup. That said, there are other features that I would like.

This would be for a rifle. So, the criteria are:

LED

Tail cap Momentary/Clicky; Preferably protected/slightly protected from inadvertent activation. The ability to swap for a remote tape switch would be icing but not necessary.

Dual Output; 60-75 lumens for indoor use & 100-150 for outdoor use, a low setting of 5-15 lumens for staging/navigation would be icing but not necessary. ** This would be set by a dedicated control, rotating head, bezel, rotating tail cap switch, whatever... BUT, not tapping out Morse code cycling through levels with the tail cap button. **

Solid Build; Rugged, weatherproof, something that can take abuse and be trusted to work when you need it. From a company who will be around in 2 years when you need a part. Or a system that is compatible with parts from a major manufacturer.

Lightweight; This would all come in as small and lightweight package as possible. That said it would have to be compatible with available quality rail mounts.

Battery Power; 123A preferred. Would take AA if it made all the other criteria and a quality rail mount was available.

So, anyone make this light? Could I Lego something together that would meet all the criteria? What are your thoughts?

Search · Mar 18, 2009

Close but no cigar.

Go search the Surefire weapon lights.

They meet ALL of your requirements but one:

They do have two modes: High and Low Low for secret navigation and reading but lack a middle mode for indoor.

This would be unnecessary anyway. By follow proper tactical procedure and tactics you would avoid shining the light in your own eyes.

Plus, if your light is on a weapon, you had better be using it for something important and if you are, you want a lot of light on the target. No room for not enough light playing tricks on your eyes.

seattlite · Mar 18, 2009

A Surefire M600 scout with a dual mode E2DL head would meet most of your requirements.

Luke_Y · Mar 18, 2009

Search said:
Close but no cigar.

This would be unnecessary anyway. By follow proper tactical procedure and tactics you would avoid shining the light in your own eyes.

Plus, if your light is on a weapon, you had better be using it for something important and if you are, you want a lot of light on the target. No room for not enough light playing tricks on your eyes.

You don't have to shine it in your own eyes. :grin2:

Try this some night;

Sit in a totally dark room for 30 min. or more so you have completely night adapted vision.

Step into a dark confined hallway thats painted white like most interior walls. (even better if you can try this in an unfamiliar location)

Mount your weapon and fire off a 3-5 second burst of your 120+ lumen mounted weapon-light. Turn it off... (maybe you need to reposition to cover or another room without giving away your movement, maybe you realize you are backlighting/silhouetting a partner-team member-family member)

Now, start moving quickly as soon as you extinguish the light... Can't see S$%# can you?

Now you start to see the problem. There are considerations, tactics, and training to work around this. But, a very high lumen light indoors is not ideal.

Now, if you don't know if at any given time if you are going to be expected to locate and contact a hostile presence while searching an unfamiliar building, or confront them across a a field/in the woods... Well a light as described may be useful.

Kato · Mar 18, 2009

Based upon your criteria, my suggestion would be to get a Scoutlight, bore it out to fit a 17670, and put a Nitecore Extreme head on it.

You get...

a momentary with a clicky that you can swap for a remote pressure switch,
dual output (a high of 220 lumens and a second setting that you can set anywhere from 2 to 220 lumens),
no chance of inadvertently switching modes by using the tailcap (just loosen the head slightly to go to low, and tighten the head to go to high),
everything but the head made by SF,
and as lightweight as the regular Scoutlight setup.

The only factor missing is the CR123a requirement. If you don't like the 17670 setup, you can do the same thing by putting the NEX head on an E1e-BK and mounting the light onto a Picatinny rail with an M78 mount. Your max output goes down to 200 lumens, but you still get 75 minutes of runtime on high with a single CR123a.

Luke_Y · Mar 18, 2009

seattlite said:
A Surefire M600 scout with a dual mode E2DL head would meet most of your requirements.

But, It's 5/120. It's the 5-15 that would be icing I could live without, but need the 60-75/100-150. And you have to do the button tap-dance to select the output.

As much as I would like to, I don't think I could find it in a Surefire product. Maybe something custom or modded.

Thats why I am posing the question to the candlepower gurus. :thumbsup:

Luke_Y · Mar 19, 2009

Kato said:
Based upon your criteria, my suggestion would be to get a Scoutlight, bore it out to fit a 17670, and put a Nitecore Extreme head on it.

...SNIP...
The only factor missing is the CR123a requirement. If you don't like the 17670 setup, you can do the same thing by putting the NEX head on an E1e-BK...

This is an interesting idea. However I wouldn't consider batteries that you can't buy at the corner store. I take it you can't run it on the Scout body with 2 CR123a due to the voltage? The E1 body could work. You would just drop the ability to run a remote pressure switch. Normally not a problem. But, the E1 is short. I don't know if I could reach the tail cap comfortably with the bezel positioned up near the muzzle. Have to mock it up and see.

Can you buy the Nightcore heads stand alone? If not, will the Surefire head (speaking of the E1 here, I assume the Scout/E2 wouldn't) work on the Nightcore body so It's not wasted?

How are the Nightcore products when compared to Surefire in terms of ruggedness and reliability? Most of the important stuff is in the head of these lights. If I went the E1 route would I be gaining anything by running the Surefire body? Is the switching better?

Thanks for the input. Sorry your answers bring more questions. I don't know much about these other manufacturers.

cslinger · Mar 19, 2009

If you look at the specs of the upcoming LED Streamlight Strion I think it basically meets all your requirements, in theory anyway.

123 bats.
Tailcap switch
Tape switch available
Several modes
Apparently able to act as momentary HIGH at any time
Very small
Good throw

Again, the new LED version is not out yet and I don't fully understand how the switching system will work but it sounds like it is very close to perfect for your needs.........and possibly mine as well

That new/not released Fenix TK30 or whatever might work as well.

Luke_Y · Mar 19, 2009

cslinger said:
If you look at the specs of the upcoming LED Streamlight Strion I think it basically meets all your requirements, in theory anyway.

...SNIP...

That new/not released Fenix TK30 or whatever might work as well.

Thanks, I'll look at the Streamlight. I've been using some of their handheld lights now for years and have never broken one.

The Fenix stuff looks like it could work. Honestly never heard of them. The TK 10&11 lights look to meet most of the requirements. The output on the low side is just a bit lower than I would prefer. 60 Lumens is right at the bottom of what I was looking for. How do they rate their output, optimistically, honestly, or conservatively? How is Fenix quality, durability, and reliability? The China thing makes me leery...

How does the output levels switching work on the TK10/11?

That New TA30 would be perfect if it was only a 2 cell light and the quality was there. But, I don't want the weight/size of a 3 cell light.

It's looking to be truly hard to find it all. :duh2:

UpChUcK · Mar 19, 2009

How about the Olight M20 Warrior Premium? It has an R2 emitter with 3 levels of Low: 7 lm (150hrs), Med: 90 lm (12hrs), Hi 250 lm (~3hrs). But it also has strobe so I'm not sure if you want that. The modes are switched by turning the head (loosen then tighten). It's "dedicated" but but may not fit your definition of "dedicated". There are also weapon mounts and a remote pressure switch available.

Or how about the Inove Inforce line. The Color and IR have "dedicated" controls for switching modes. 125 lm hi, 60 lm med and 8 lm low. Here's a review of it.

Kato · Mar 19, 2009

Luke_Y said:
This is an interesting idea. However I wouldn't consider batteries that you can't buy at the corner store. I take it you can't run it on the Scout body with 2 CR123a due to the voltage? The E1 body could work. You would just drop the ability to run a remote pressure switch. Normally not a problem. But, the E1 is short. I don't know if I could reach the tail cap comfortably with the bezel positioned up near the muzzle. Have to mock it up and see.

Can you buy the Nightcore heads stand alone? If not, will the Surefire head (speaking of the E1 here, I assume the Scout/E2 wouldn't) work on the Nightcore body so It's not wasted?

How are the Nightcore products when compared to Surefire in terms of ruggedness and reliability? Most of the important stuff is in the head of these lights. If I went the E1 route would I be gaining anything by running the Surefire body? Is the switching better?

Thanks for the input. Sorry your answers bring more questions. I don't know much about these other manufacturers.

Correct, you cannot run two CR123a cells with the NEX head.
You can run the Scoutlight UE07 remote pressure switch on an E1e.
According to 4Sevens, because the vast majority of the cost of the NEX is in the head, it is not available separately.
Although I've read posts which mention that the threading on the NEX body is shorter than on standard SF E-series bodies, I've had no problems fitting SF E-series heads to the NEX body.
I've had absolutely no problems with the NEX head. The switch on the first batch of NEXs were bad, but the newer ones are better. That said, the SF clicky has a more positive feel. Also, the NEX does not have a removeable tailcap. The switch is part of the body. Therefore, running the light with a SF body will get you a better clicky and the option to use a remote pressure switch.

Hope that helps!

jslappa · Mar 19, 2009

How does this sound...

1. Surefire 3P (saw one is Marketplace today NIB)
2. Malkoff M30 (with 1 RCR123, 170 Lumens possible)
3. Uniq Tailcap (infinitely adjustable output for LED ONLY)

The 3P is small, and built like a tank. It's Surefire, so you know you can get parts.

The Malkoff M30 Drop-in can realistically give you about 170 lumens on 1 CR123 battery. It's $55, when in stock at malkoffdevices.com.

The Uniq tailcap can be had at a US seller (lighthound.com) for $35. By touching the green glow button, you can infinitely zoom the output from a low low, probably 1 or less lumens, to the M30 max for your setup, 170 lumens, or there abouts. It only comes in grey, so you'll need some appliance touch-up paint to get it black. Unless you want to spring for anodizing!

Looks like about $200 invested should get you close to what you need.

LED

Tail cap Momentary/Clicky; Preferably protected/slightly protected from inadvertent activation. The ability to swap for a remote tape switch would be icing but not necessary. YUP, Protected tailcap

Dual Output; 60-75 lumens for indoor use & 100-150 for outdoor use, a low setting of 5-15 lumens for staging/navigation would be icing but not necessary. ** This would be set by a dedicated control, rotating head, bezel, rotating tail cap switch, whatever... BUT, not tapping out Morse code cycling through levels with the tail cap button. ** You really want tri-output, staging----indoor----outside. You can get that with the Uniq tailcap.

Solid Build; Rugged, weatherproof, something that can take abuse and be trusted to work when you need it. From a company who will be around in 2 years when you need a part. Or a system that is compatible with parts from a major manufacturer. Surefire------meets and exceeds all these requirements.

Lightweight; This would all come in as small and lightweight package as possible. That said it would have to be compatible with available quality rail mounts. The 3P is relatively light, with the thick arse body we all love. Should be plenty of rail mounts to fit.

Battery Power; 123A preferred. Would take AA if it made all the other criteria and a quality rail mount was available. Uh Huh, 123---check.

Luke_Y · Mar 19, 2009

jslappa said:
How does this sound...

1. Surefire 3P (saw one is Marketplace today NIB)
2. Malkoff M30 (with 1 RCR123, 170 Lumens possible)
3. Uniq Tailcap (infinitely adjustable output for LED ONLY)

Thanks, but that tail cap wont work for this application. No true momentary.

Luke_Y · Mar 19, 2009

So to sum things up at this point. I guess the following setups are in contention:

SureFire E1 series body-with NightCore Extreme head-option to use Z68 protected tail cap/scout remote switch. (I'm assuming any of the E1 lights will work- and that any of the E1 heads can be used with the NCE body) This would cover all of the required items (assuming that the NC-E head doesn't compromise the weather sealing and is otherwise up to the task) and only miss a couple of the nice to have items.

* Runtime may be a bit of a concern with only the 1 cell, but hey weight is minimal.

The Fenix TK10 or 11 lights look to meet most of the requirements. The output on the low side is just a bit lower than I would prefer. 60 Lumens is right at the bottom of what I was looking for. How do they rate their output, optimistically, honestly, or conservatively? Do they select output the same way as the NCE? How is Fenix quality, durability, and reliability? The China thing makes me leery... That TA30 with the stand alone level selector would hit the nail on the head if if I could live with the size and weight of a 3 cell light...

OK, so I excluded some of the sugestions;
Streamlight Strion- It's a recharger, no direct select for output tail cap tap dance.
Olight- No direct select for output, have to tighten/loosen and cycle through all.
Inova Inforce- No direct select for output, tail cap tap dance.
Surefire 3P/Malkoff/Uniq setup- No true momentary, I can predict problems with the programable tail cap trying to use momentary.

It's looking like the Surefire/NCE setup is in front at this point, with the Fenix a possibility as well. If anyone has any other ideas I would love to hear them.

I really appreciate the feedback. The only lights I have a good working knowledge of are Surefire and Streamlight. And, I don't know nearly as much about them as most of you. I know nothing about any of these other brands (most I never heard of). But I have been reading here and am slowly sorting it out.

Thanks Again

Xak · Mar 21, 2009

Olight M20 Warrior. I got the tail cap with pressure switch, it's great.

MattK · Mar 21, 2009

Another vote for the Olight M20 - meets everything you've asked for except the tailcap isn't 'shrouded' though it is partially protected with crenelations.

The larger Olight M30 Triton, due out next month, will definitely exceed every requirement you've set forth - ~700L on high + strobe.

Search · Mar 21, 2009

Whether or not I'm the only one who doesn't have this problem.. I don't see how multiple modes on a real tactical light is useful.

I don't have to test you're idea because I've cleared rooms many a time.

Never have I blinded myself with 225 lumens.

Multiple modes on a tactical light is insane. If you have to worry about it chaning modes on you, you missed the point of it being very very simple so you can focus on not getting shot.

If you or anyone think that having multiple modes, or worry about blinding yourself, I would offer that you went through a low light class.

We don't blind ourselves because the techniques teach you how to avoid it.

MattK · Mar 21, 2009

Well a strobe certainly has an application for a 'real' tactical / weapon mount light.

Also, many buyers of tactical lights are looking for multi-purpose tools that can go from belt to weapon. For example; only in the largest cities are SWAT team members only on SWAT; in most cities SWAT team members serve dual duty as patrol officers or similar.

If the UI is properly designed for tactical / weapon usage one need not worry about cycling modes/levels. The Olight M20 recommended by myself and others use a seperate interface (bezel 'switch') to change modes/levels so pressing the tailcap only does what you've 'programmed' it to do; no cycling.

Search · Mar 22, 2009

A strobe could have a purpose on a tactical light as long as it was easy to activate but not part of the cycling.

A reverse clickie can be used (through experience) but a forward clickie or a twistie are all you should plan to use.

I never knew that about the M20 Matt but I always had an eye on the TK11 and TK10 because they had a good use to be able to walk up to a street car and blind the driver, then switch to low mode and check his papers, but then run into the building he fled into with a gun and be able to search using a forward clickie and not having to worry about it changing into low mode because you hit the momentary button too many times. Given in low light you use momentary flashes having one button for two or three modes in a cycling process is not what you need or want. That's all I mean.

I still back up what I said about too much light.

I've used 200+ lumen lights during our training and unless I turned my light on at the wrong time and hit a wall right in front of me I never blinded myself.

I even tried last night on white walls and found that I was immune.

HOWEVER!!! To each his own. If someone works for one guy it isn't going to work for another.

If anyone can enter a high stress situation and be able to work the modes while being shot at or potentially shot at while keeping a firm mind on the task at hand whether it be moving, changing modes, or doing both then more power to you.

Trial and error in training will help you see exactly what YOU need.

Matt, I might be buying an M20 from you soon. I'm testing tactical lights to see just how well their form and features performs. I never knew that about the M20 and need to try it out.

I personally plan on having two light on my person and four in total.

1 for general use.
1 on the person for tactical use.
1 in the car for backup.
1 more in case something breaks.

My schedule is always nights and I never train in day nor will I work in the day so having good lights here in the sub country is a necessity.

Luke_Y · Mar 22, 2009

Search said:
Whether or not I'm the only one who doesn't have this problem.. I don't see how multiple modes on a real tactical light is useful. Multiple modes could be ideal on a light that is expected to do more than one thing well. You point this out yourself later in your post.

I don't have to test you're idea because I've cleared rooms many a time. BTDT myself as well. I'm not just puling these thoughts out of my a$$. experience is what has led me to look for a better light/user interface

Never have I blinded myself with 225 lumens. I'm not talking "literally" blind, except for that second or so after you first flash. I'm talking about the loss of your night vision when the light is off. Worse and worse with every momentary flash of a high lumen light indoors. But perhaps you are immune.

Multiple modes on a tactical light is insane. If you have to worry about it chaning modes on you, you missed the point of it being very very simple so you can focus on not getting shot. I agree with you there. I think this is where some of our misunderstanding is rooted. when I said ; "Dual Output; 60-75 lumens for indoor use & 100-150 for outdoor use, a low setting of 5-15 lumens for staging/navigation would be icing but not necessary. ** This would be set by a dedicated control, rotating head, bezel, rotating tail cap switch, whatever... BUT, not tapping out Morse code cycling through levels with the tail cap button. **" I might not have been clear enough. I want a light that I can set on one level of illumination (60-75 lumens for indoor work) with a dedicated control, leave it there, and never have to worry about it changing modes. If I find the need to deploy a carbine outdoors I want to be able to switch that dedicated control to the high lumen setting, leave it there, and never have to worry about it changing modes. Thats one of the main reasons I discounted many of the suggested lights. The only control I want to use during an engagement is the tail button. The only thing I want it to do is momentary/and click for constant

If you or anyone think that having multiple modes, or worry about blinding yourself, I would offer that you went through a low light class. Several of the respected instructors that offer low light classes suggest that 60-100 lumens would be preferred on a carbine that will be deployed indoors.

We don't blind ourselves because the techniques teach you how to avoid it. Yes there are methods to train and minimizethe disadvantages that can be associated with using a very high lumen light CQB/indoors.

A strobe could have a purpose on a tactical light as long as it was easy to activate but not part of the cycling.

A reverse clickie can be used (through experience) but a forward clickie or a twistie are all you should plan to use.

I never knew that about the M20 Matt but I always had an eye on the TK11 and TK10 because they had a good use to be able to walk up to a street car and blind the driver, then switch to low mode and check his papers, but then run into the building he fled into with a gun and be able to search using a forward clickie and not having to worry about it changing into low mode because you hit the momentary button too many times. Given in low light you use momentary flashes having one button for two or three modes in a cycling process is not what you need or want. That's all I mean. I think we are in agreement there, I dont want a light that cycles either...

I still back up what I said about too much light.

I've used 200+ lumen lights during our training and unless I turned my light on at the wrong time and hit a wall right in front of me I never blinded myself. So it can happen...

I even tried last night on white walls and found that I was immune. Well, I guess I don't share your immunity from loss of night vision.

HOWEVER!!! To each his own. If someone works for one guy it isn't going to work for another. True words We may never agree on the ideal level of light for indoor work. But, it appears that we both agree that having a light that candeliver more than one set level of light may be useful (just different uses) but think that any kind of tail cap button tap dance can only lead to trouble on a tactical light.

If anyone can enter a high stress situation and be able to work the modes while being shot at or potentially shot at while keeping a firm mind on the task at hand whether it be moving, changing modes, or doing both then more power to you. I think it's clear that thats not what I'm looking for.

Trial and error in training will help you see exactly what YOU need. Thats how I arrived at this quest for MY ideal weapon light. It appears no-one makes it though.

Matt, I might be buying an M20 from you soon. I'm testing tactical lights to see just how well their form and features performs. I never knew that about the M20 and need to try it out.

I personally plan on having two light on my person and four in total.

1 for general use.
1 on the person for tactical use.
1 in the car for backup.
1 more in case something breaks.

My schedule is always nights and I never train in day nor will I work in the day so having good lights here in the sub country is a necessity.

If there was a dedicated control on a my Surefire Scout Light that allowed one to chose between say 75 lumen and 220 lumen, but everything else worked the same. That would be my ideal light.

Thanks for your input though, and thanks everyone else for your suggestions.

Ideal WeaponLight- Anyone make this

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