Your choice for a "tactical blinder"

I had thought that a P7 or MC-E might make the best choice as a tactical blinder in a defense/confrontational situation because of the extra output from 4-emitters vs the more common single Q5 or R2 emitter.

In a quick and non-scientific test, I asked my wife to blast me from the bed to the bedroom door with a variety of lights, Malkoff P7, MTE SSC P7, Malkoff M60, Malkoff M30, Malkoff M60F, and Solarforce R2.

It seemed to me that the M60/M30 (if they are aimed precisely well into the eyes) were the most blinding in the eyes (because of their beam focus) with the MTE SSC P7 coming in very close behind. The MTE SSC P7 has four emitters of brightness vs one in the M6/M30, and didn't need to be directed into the eyes with quite as much precision as the M60/M30 did to achieve it's effect.

I was a little surprised at first, but found that the Malkoff P7 much as I love it as a general use flooder, was just too diffuse to have as much brute impact as the more focused MTE SSC P7 and Malkoff M60/M30 lamps.

What are your thoughts on the subject... if you needed a brilliant light for tactical defense use on the street, for a tactical blinder, would you prefer having a broadly diffuse quad emitter (P7 or MC-E), a more lens-focused single emitter light (which would require greater pointing accuracy to achieve desired effect), a more reflector-focused quad emitter like the MTE SSC P7, or... something else?

Threads on topics associated with "defense" have rarely been successful in the past, as discussion has tended after a while to turn from defense to offense, and how to inflict injury on others.

That is NOT to happen here, or the thread will be closed. Members are advised that inappropriate posts will incur moderator action.

Deleted.

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DM51 said:

Threads on topics associated with "defense" have rarely been successful in the past, as discussion has tended after a while to turn from defense to offense, and how to inflict injury on others.

That is NOT to happen here, or the thread will be closed. Members are advised that inappropriate posts will incur moderator action.

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(I hit reply and walked away so I didn't see this but found it after I posted. So I'll change my message to better fit what you've said.)


My message described how to use a tactical blinder but when I do that it's one the offense as I speak from training with SWAT..

As far as changing to defense minded, you are right in your initial statement:

The R2 will be better at disorientating someones night vision, period.

Even though the P7 and MC-E produce more light, they don't put more light into particular point (lux).

Therefore, an R2 (TK11 R2 for example) or an M60 (In a 6P for example) would do a better job.



What you need is a single emitter in a unit that throws and has a high lux.

I chose "Something else I will describe".

By the word "tactical", I assume it's to be used in a tactical situation, possible rilfe mountable.

And by the word "blinder", I assume the light has to be assuringly disorient the perpetrator completely.

For that, let me present you what I think can do the job as a "tactical blind": Vector VEC189 100 watts rifle mount!






Of course, you didn't state portability.

It depends on what kind of self-defense you are talking about.

For unarmed self-defense, tactical "blinding" occurs even at the old SureFire P60 incandescent lamp intensity level. Of course, the participants are generally close, since attackers have to come up to you to get what they want. We ran combatives drills with lots of students and a 6P shined in the face clearly slowed down their reaction time a lot. You could defend very easily before they could respond. This worked even indoors in full room lighting.

Attacker movement did require constant adjustment of the flashlight to keep the main beam on the attacker's face. At "interpersonal confrontational distances", a pinpoint hot spot is not recommended. I would suggest a hot spot size of at least a full head width at 7 feet.

For weapon (firearm) self-defense, IMO you need the light more for target ID than for blinding. The whole point is to make a shoot/don't shoot decision. I need to be able to see from the head to the waistline at a minimum to identify the threat and to see if the threat has any weapons. Of course, it would be great if your light could do this out to 100 yards or more, but realistically IMO 25 yds and in is probably enough. For that range, I don't think you need a huge thrower/blinder to reach out that far.

In colder weather when I can wear a jacket, I like my SureFire 6P with SRTH TurboHead (a 12ZM at home), equipped with an AW tower module. I have two tower configurations that I am comparing -- SSC P4/SOB1000 vs 2S2P Cree MC-E/SOB1000. For the MC-E tower, the hot spot lux is about 80%-90% of the hot spot lux for my DX11836 R2 drop-in. But the hot spot size is far larger and the spill is about 70% of the hot spot lux for my old SF KL4 head and huge. The P4 tower's hot spot is more focused than the MC-E's so that the hot spot is over twice the lux of my DX6090 and probably about 50% more than my DX11836. The P4 tower's hot spot plus corona size is probably about the size of the MC-E's hot spot. The P4's spill is about 20% of the hot spot lux of my KL4.

For EDC, my light choice is a compromise between compact size and light output. I like the "TW4" configuration using an OpticsHQ E2 conversion head. The light fits nicely in a pocket but is still large enough that I can use it for Kubotan techniques if required.

FLOOD baby. Think of what a "tactical" situation would be like. Probably close in, high stress. Even if you are highly trained, it is going to be a lot more difficult to put a tightly focused hotspot in someones eyes than a floody one. There is more of a margin of error with a floody light, and that extra flood will help see the area near you better too.

Throw just isn't very useful in that type of situation. If you want to light someone up from so far away that a P7 won't do the job, they probably aren't a threat (yet) in the type of situation you describe.

I love throw lights for identifying things a long ways off, like with outdoor searches, but they aren't useful for close in "tactical" applications like a good P7 flood machine. This is my personal experience from doing tons of building searches and some training with the SWAT team at work.

Pepper Spray to me is a tactical blinder, probably the best.

Zeruel:

funny picture.

how bout something with strobe function too. Strobe is very disorienting (to me at least) when it doesn't stop and it's so bright and so dark!

the strobe on my Fenix TK40 is ridiculous evil. Even in a room with all the lights on.

PetaBread said:

Pepper Spray to me is a tactical blinder, probably the best.

Zeruel:

funny picture.

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I agree and years ago I had what looked like a normal 3D flashlight however it was a 2D with a canister of CS gas in the front of the cylinder with a small tube which entended through the lens. I have no idea if such is still made or available these days.

PetaBread said:

Pepper Spray to me is a tactical blinder, probably the best.

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Pepper spray has more restrictions on where you can possess it vs a flashlight. Of course, if you had a choice in a situation that allowed this level of force response, drawing OC may be preferable to drawing a flashlight. But the OP asked about flashlights in this thread.

I think a rally nice light for the money is the Solarforce L950M P7 D bin. Very nicely built and can be weapon mounted with a pressure pad. For a small carry light check out the Dereelight CL1H V4 it has a pocket clip and you can get it with smo/op reflectors. WHat I like about Dereelight is they are driven @1.2A which is about 300 Lumens in a R2 with an excellent Hot spot.I really like it. Contact Flashcrazy on the dealer section.

None of them! I'd go with the Legion-II, hands down!!

When I say tactical blinder, I mean just that... a light to use to momentarily blind an opponent at close range... to allow you time to get off the X and produce a weapon. I'm not thinking about a weapons light or longer range tactical light... but something small enough to have in a coat pocket (something similar in size to a 3P or 6P) and bright enough to disorient an opponent.

I know there are a LOT of lights which can potentially do this, but noticing that if the preciseness of the aim isn't great with the more throwy types (which do focus down to a very brilliant beam) like the M60/M30, the effect is greatly lost. If the beam is spot on (as someone said this can be difficult to do in the throes of self-defense) the effect is probably better than a P7 or MC-E, but if the aim isn't so precise, perhaps the quad emitters are a better choice.

As I mentioned in the first post, I find that the best combination of brilliant intensity, floodiness, AND with some centrally focused intensity is given from the MTE SSC P7, which is basically a 6P size light, but with a somewhat wider and deeper reflector - its this reflector that gives the characteristicly floody P7 a centrality that intensifies the brilliance, without losing the floody nature. I'm surprised this option didn't get more votes... perhaps because not a lot of people are familiar with this light.

[advertising link removed - DM51]

TO anyone with interest in this light, I HIGHLY recommend it. Again, it gives a more focused central brilliance than most P7/MC-E lights, that intensifies the spot somewhat, without losing the wide, floody illumination that is so nice. SO many P7/MC-E lights seems to just be pure flood with no central beam or ability to throw. This light can actually throw a bit with it's more pronounced central beam.

DHart said:

As I mentioned in the first post, I find that the best combination of brilliant intensity, floodiness, AND with some centrally focused intensity is given from the MTE SSC P7...

[advertising link removed - DM51]

TO anyone with interest in this light, I HIGHLY recommend it...

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So is that the real reason you started this thread? To plug that light and that dealer?

This thread has taken on a whole different meaning. Flood works the same as throw in tactical situations, it's not hard to put it on someones face..

I mean come one, your not trying to put a laser in someones eye, even throwy lights can easily be put on a face anytime...

Throw > Flood in tactical situations, but this isn't a tactical situation.. It's a situation where the OP is doomed.

"a light to use to momentarily blind an opponent at close range... to allow you time to get off the X and produce a weapon"

Goodbye, a flashlight is the LAST thing I want in my hand.

Unless I whacked them in the head, you had better go learn martial arts or something.

If I was at close range and wanted to kill you, and you whipped out a flashlight, I'm still going to kill you unless my heads busted open, period.

Gotta agree with Search in general. To strictly answer the question about which type of flashlight might work best for a temporary blinder out of the choices made, I would go with the Malkoff M60/30 or the R2 pill, that have more throw than flood. Pepperspray is not an option in my own house. I wouldn't want to have to clean up that mess.

My personal testing experience with blinding with bright lights is that throw lights that focus it into the eyes have far more effect than flood lights. We live in a world where its very bright during the day, far more than 400 to 800 lumens and we think nothing of it. I light up my garage with no less than 2000 lumens and probably more like 4000 L when everything is on and think nothing of it to have those lights in front of my face while working, because they are all providing what winds up to be soft flood.

The Solarforce L9XXM series that actually has a pretty good spot portion of the beam would make a great blinder except for whose going to actually be carrying it the majority of the time? If its in my house for "defensive" situations I might use it or carry the Malkoff Triple which definitely is going to be a blinder in some one's face. Might just have the EagleTac T10C2. The Malkoff MC-E's are just too soft in flood light to be a blinder unless its right in there face. That gets back to Search's issues about having the wrong tool in you hand for now being in a very potetially hand to hand combat situation. Not going to discuss weapons, going to keep it to flashlights. So a focused 200 plus lumens in the eyes to me seems to work better than 400 or more lumens of softer flood. The softer the flood the more meaningless it is as a "blinder".

Out in public, where pepper spray is legal to carry and use, I would say the high discharge foams are the better blinder. That does not get into legal and physical down sides to that, which is not a discussion for this thread.

^^ +1

Seriously in all honesty.

Get you a throwy P60 host light and get a Malkoff throwy or an R2 drop in.

That will be your best bet at attempting to get someone away from you, however.

(I will say this real quick, the E2DL would be something I would recommend because of it's ability to blind someone, and beat the crap out of them.)

If you have a weapon, it had better be produced before they are one you because if you have time to produce a light, you have time to produce a weapon.

Maybe use them in conjunction, but a weapon first, then a light; unless a light is your only weapon and you had better be prepared to fight.

Most people who want to mug you or randomly beat you aren't going to appear as threats until they are ready to be a threat.

No one yells at you from across the parking lot to say they want to attack you.

Get yourself civilian stun device or pepper spray or even something like an E2DL.

Notice, SureFire doesn't say the E2DL is a defense tool just because of it's brightness, it has the tough strike bezel.

The others they claim are self defense really aren't.


It's like I said, a light isn't going to stop me if I'm determined. It would take a beating.

Unless I had mixed feelings, and I wouldn't bank on that.

DM51 said:

So is that the real reason you started this thread? To plug that light and that dealer?

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Wow. I'm kind of taken aback by your reaction. Is that what you really think? Please pardon me. I'm a nobody around here and gain nothing by sharing a light I like and where it can be found. :thinking: You have jumped to the wrong conclusion. You also disapproved of the thread from the get go. I felt like I had done something wrong by wanting to discuss the subject.... the last thing I have intended is to raise your ire.

My conclusion was that a quad emitter light which also focused a bit of a central beam might be the most effective for blinding. I have seen throughout this forum many links to lights on sales forums, so I believed (apparently wrongly) that there was nothing wrong in doing so, to show people the light and where they might find one - if they wanted one. I always appreciate when others make it easy to find a light that they recommend to the board. Please delete the entire thread if you wish.. really, it's just not truly that important, especially if viewed it with suspicion.

~

Search and MrGman.... you make excellent points. To elaborate, I can envision using a light simultaneously with a weapon... if possible. One never knows how a confrontation might unfold, but it would seem that a blinding light could play a very helpful role in some defensive situations. It's difficult to clearly discuss defense scenarios as there are so very many interacting variables and nothing in particular can be predicted.

It was clear in my experiment with my wife that the more focused light of the M60/M30/R2 was much more blinding than the basic (unfocused) P7. So, MrGman, I totally agree with you in that regard. Before my experiment, I might have guessed that the sheer output of the P7 and it's breadth might be the winner.... but that wasn't the outcome, as the focused lux of the throwers really kicked up the brightness factor! Then there's the aspect of size of the spot.... and on.... but...

Search said:

Most people who want to mug you or randomly beat you aren't going to appear as threats until they are ready to be a threat.

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This is the most key element in so many defense situations... your opponent knows what they're about to do and you have no clue until they are practically in your face and "the drop" begins. There are tactical measures and weapon choices to cope with this, but they are beyond the scope of discussion in this thread. I was just trying to kick around thoughts on the different light types for momentary blinding an opponent, that's all.

~

well folks, thanks for your input here, but I guess this thread had a dark cloud over it from the beginning. DM51, if you think this thread is problematic or suspect ulterior motives, please don't hesitate to just vaporize it. It wouldn't bother me at all.

I dunno, Not including my key chain light I mostly carry lights with a cree/parabolic reflector combo, so I guess that's what I would most likely have on me in the event of some sort of situation where to arise. If it helps I usually carry a 6p with a M60 or a Hotwired G3 if I'm working. Mostly because I like the feel of those lights and I never take the lanyards off (the little lights I sometimes don't like lanyards on). I have smaller lights that are as bright as the M60, but the 6p and G3 are my go to lights if I know I will need a bright light.