Leatherman... Surefire

Hey guys,

I've got a couple of Leatherman flashlights that I really enjoy -- S2 and S3, both excellent -- but I was thinking of getting a couple of Surefires, simply because I've got an opportunity to get a good deal on them.

But man. I've been comparing the lights and -- unless I'm overlooking something, here -- it seems like Surefire just doesn't have anything comparable that can match up to the Leathermans in brightness and runtime.

Or am I indeed overlooking something, here? Any advice or suggestions?

Thanks in advance,
Jack

Edit: Yes, I know Leatherman is simply a branded Fenix. But I'm really more interested in the practical aspects. Thanks

FYI, the Leatherman Serac lights are made by Fenix.

FYIx2, the discussion generally turns out poorly when you attempt to compare a SF to anything else, especially if it's cheaper or made in China...

I have always said SF excels at what they do well and flops at what they don't. But thats true for any light, regardless of brand, country of origin or model.

You buy surefire for their company/factory support, lifetime of replacement parts (sans LA), and weapon-mount compatibility. If lumen output or run time is a high priority skip Surefire all together, or look to any one of the hundreds (thousands perhaps) of modifications at your disposal.

There is NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT LIGHT (sorry I feel the need to yell:twothumbs). Expecting ONE light to do EVERYTHING is impossible. You could spend $1000 in a custom job and still I guarantee it will have design limitations.

Unfortunately a lot of noobs enter CPF expecting SF products to be the end all light, perfect in every way and without design limitations. Which of course is far from reality. Phase 2 of your quest should be to understand the design limitations in every product, understand your own personal preferences and from there narrow down the field. So surefire does not meet your personal needs... OK... just keep looking for something that does.

Post back with your preferences and more specifically what you are looking for...

I don't expect Surefire to be the 'end all' in flashlights -- indeed, I started by noting that Leatherman seems to be turning out an ostensibly finer, compact product. And of course there are endless custom jobs.

My preferences, as expressed, are two: Long runtime. Bright light.

I understand getting 'into' flashlights, as with any other gadget, can lead anyone down an ever-narrower path. Specialized applications, specific preferences, etc ad nauseam. But my needs are broad and varied, so I'm looking for the best match in a light.

Jack Lewis said:

My preferences, as expressed, are two: Long runtime. Bright light.

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How bright?... whats your intended use? For some applications 10 Lumens is more than enough.

How long?... how long would you like it to run between cell reloads, whats your minimum run time requirement?

kramer5150 said:

How bright?... whats your intended use? For some applications 10 Lumens is more than enough.

How long?... how long would you like it to run between cell reloads, whats your minimum run time requirement?

Click to expand...

Not to belabor the point, but:

1) As bright as possible.

2) As long as possible.

Of course there are compromises, particularly in this compact form. But I'm looking for the nexis of the two preferences.

Jack Lewis said:

it seems like Surefire just doesn't have anything comparable that can match up to the Leathermans in brightness and runtime.

Or am I indeed overlooking something, here? Any advice or suggestions?

Click to expand...

You might. Are you comparing based on specs for the lumens? Or you physically match it side by side?

If it's based on specs, I'm afraid you are mistaken by the lux vs lumen point. Check out The Welcome Mat for "What's the difference between "lumens" and "lux"?"
Example for Surefire E2D Led, it stated 120 lumens, it actually outputs about 200+ lumens.

How long and how bright are good questions, but also how big. You can get 700 lumens for 2 hours, but the light might not fit in your shirt pockets very comfortable. EX: Legion II or a Maglight P7 build.

Now if you are willing to compromise

A Surefire 6P will accomodate a Malkoff MC-E regulated, but you will get 400~450 Lumens for 45 minutes, It will be all flood and no throw. So, do you want throw too?

Jack Lewis said:

Not to belabor the point, but:

1) As bright as possible.

2) As long as possible.

Of course there are compromises, particularly in this compact form. But I'm looking for the nexis of the two preferences.

Click to expand...

Hmm OK...

Solarforce 1x18650 host and a Malkoff M30.
That will get you ~225 lumens, ~60-90 minutes (ballpark estimate) of run time.
AW 18650 cells and an ultrafire WF-139 (note that trustfire-blue 2400mah cells have been tested to be legit 2300-2400mah)
I think this setup is a good compromise between the two, within the 6P size and form factor.

The next step from there would be to add a 1x18650 cell extension to that Solarforce host and go with an M60 with 2x18650 cells. That will get you more run time but the same Lumen output (225L), size obviously will take a hit.

If you want more Lumens than that the DX:MC-E drop in is the next logical step, that will get you into the 350 Lumen ballpark off a single 18650. But your run times will take a dive, fortunately it has a 150 Lumen low mode to keep emitter temperatures down and run times up.

IMHO the DX:MC-E drop in is the most current you can draw and most lumens you can reliably emit from the small 6P size factor. Even that one gets VERY hot if left on for longer than 4-5 minutes, it draws 1.6A IIRC so it should only be left on for short durations and therefore more spot-usage applications. The brighter high current (2A+) MC-E and P7 drop ins will come close to thermally nuking themselves if left running for more than 4-5 minutes unattended.

IMHO if you need/want more than ~350 Lumens with some degree of reliability + longer run times you are going to have to go with a larger form factor than the 6P. Theres a reason no reputable manufacturer has jumped up and claimed their title as Lumen champ by smoking 2.8A into a P7 emitter in a 1x18650 form factor. (LOL)

That sitcky thread for MrGman and his Lumen measurements has some great info... although he doesn't really discuss run times.

Jack Lewis said:

Not to belabor the point, but:

1) As bright as possible.

2) As long as possible.

Click to expand...

And these two parameters are opposites. Your simply has to select some point in between.
Another solution is to get a multilevel light, then you can switch between 1) and 2).

Any light that is claiming to full fill both both 1) and 2) at the same time is simply not being honest with the specifications. there are only a few parameter that flashlight manufacturers can trim: Optical system, use AR coating and glass with high light transmission and use a driver/converter with a high efficiency. The led does not give many options, the Cree Q5 and R2 wins the game.

Yes, I know brightness and longevity are opposites. Which is why I'm struggling to find the best of both worlds.

And it appears that my little Leatherman is about as good as it gets, from what I can find. Sure I can customize, or whatever, but warranties have value too.

Thanks again to the folks who offered helpful suggestions.

The E2L is a great runtime/output contender, for a STOCK light. 6 hours regulated on high (60 SF lumens, or about 80 most other manufacturers), 11 total, and about 100 hours on 3 lumens...and the G3 gets the better runtimes with the LED drop-ins, although be it a slightly less out put.

The S3 is an excellent little light. I have dozens of Surefires and I can still say that.

IMHO the L1 and E1B may be the most interesting of the Surefire lineup at the moment.

You may want to spend some time to actually define what you want out of your light, and what you'll be using it for. If you are about to lay out the cash for a Surefire, it will be worth spending the time to define your needs and find the best light to fit those needs. If you are able to define either the brightness OR the run time, you will be able to maximize the other parameter (ie: what is the brightest light that will run for 3 hours, or what is the longest lasting light that will put out 100 lumens). Then to be really thorough, it would be good to think about the throw vs flood spectrum and where you want to be on that scale as well. It may sound silly to sit down with a pad and pen and spend a half hour listing the intended uses of your light....but it's even sillier to spend $150 on a light that doesn't meet your needs.

THe one great thing about Surefire is their customer service. I know some here have had issues but I have had noting but stellar service. YOu should have at least one light that you can call the company and say, yeah I screwed up your product being kinda stupid, please fix it. Because they usually will.

started by noting that Leatherman seems to be turning out an ostensibly finer, compact product.

Click to expand...

when that light is made by Fenix, then it is not Leatherman who is turning out an ...


Sfs are great in machining but for led lights - they suck, imho
(one reason I believe for that is not to make their other cash cows obsolete.
Lets face it: if the 2*CR123 models were - output and electronically wise - similar to any good light like Fenix, Jetbeam, Olight, ..., NOONE would purchase Halogen 6P, 8X, 9N, and such, any more)

That said, my #1 used light is a led+driver+18650 modded 6P with additional clicky.
If one asks me, if the price/value ratio just for the clicky is good - it costs MORE than a whole light of the "better" medium priced makers - I agree that that is not the case.
Still this light feels the best in my arsenal
(+ the mod makes it better than production lights, but the 18650 Jetbeam is very close)

yellow said:

Lets face it: if the 2*CR123 models were - output and electronically wise - similar to any good light like Fenix, Jetbeam, Olight, ..., NOONE would purchase Halogen 6P, 8X, 9N, and such, any more)

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Oh oh now you've done it. You have offended the Surefire and the incandescent crowd with that statement.
May God have mercy on your soul.

I think the E2DL fits the criteria you are looking for. Remember, all flashlight manufactuers can, if they wish, use the same LEDs as the next. So the real difference is how the light is designed around the LED itself. Personally, I like the way Surefire's TIR optic works in their LED lights. The E2DL uses this optic. If you do a search, you will find the E2DL does well against other 2 cell lights in it's class. It's runtime is about 90 minutes in regulation on high, which is close to 200 lumens. Low is about 5 lumens for many, many hours. So you get both, low light in close quarters with great run-time and high when you need it. What you won't get is bright light and long run-time, since this comes down to the efficiency of the LED itself, and the driver circuit efficiency. The flashlight makers can only buy the LED (they don't make it), so they have little control over it. They do, however, make the driver circuits and can control it.

The real issue is, what do you need. If you keep chasing what you want, you will never catch it because LEDs keep getting brighter, more efficient and so people keep buying new lights. If you instead decide what you need to fulfill a purpose for you light then that makes it much easier. I know, as I've bought many lights to try and answer the question(s) you are asking. What I have found is that if you don't know what you want, then their is no criteria to meet and the quest is endless. For me, I want the Surefire T1A Titan. It's not the smallest or the brightest. But it will give me any light level I want or need with just a twist. No clumbsy UI to goof with. Just a simple light that fits on my keychain, so it's with me wherever I go.

Did I ramble on long enough?

LightJaguar said:

Oh oh now you've done it. You have offended the Surefire and the incandescent crowd with that statement.
May God have mercy on your soul.

Click to expand...

I think you mean that in jest, and that's fair enough. As a comment, though, there's nothing in yellow's post that could cause offense. He's given his opinion, based partly on an assumption he's made, and some people may agree with him and others disagree, but there's nothing offensive about it.

Jack Lewis said:

Hey guys,

I've got a couple of Leatherman flashlights that I really enjoy -- S2 and S3, both excellent --.....
But man. I've been comparing the lights and -- unless I'm overlooking something, here -- it seems like Surefire just doesn't have anything comparable that can match up to the Leathermans in brightness and runtime.

Or am I indeed overlooking something, here? ...

Click to expand...

I have Leatherman and Surefire lights. They compliment each other, i.e., each fills niches that the other company does not.

Surefire does not offer AAA or AA models, but their TIR optic models (e.g., E2L, E1L) throw further, have longer runtime, and stay cooler to the touch than the Leatherman models.

The Leatherman lights serve me well for daytime EDC and the Surefire lights for night time walks outdoors.