Old M60 vs. newer M60

Policetacteam · Apr 14, 2009

Can anyone with one of Gene's older, hand engraved M60's due a comparison beam shots when compared to the newer M60's. My older hand engraved M60, which was mounted in my Surefire M952, was stolen along with my rifle. Since then I have been trying to replace the M60 with one that is comparable to my old one. I am on my second "newer" M60 and I still think the hot spot is not quite a hot or as bright as the original. I remember my older M60 with a solid bright white hot spot comparable to the Fenix TK10 or EagleTac. Anyone else notice this or is just me!?!

Kestrel · Apr 14, 2009

I noticed that my older engraved M60 was warmer & had an overall 'nicer' hotspot than my newer M30 (cooler with sharply defined hotspot), and I have read posts from two others that they have had the similar experience. Might be a self-selecting poll, though - I'm naturally looking for info that supports my observations.:huh:

The reflector surface from my older M60 actually looks very lightly stippled. I know that small changes have been made to the optic, and have read some of Gene's posts where he describes bin changes, but there isn't really a timeline on when these changes were made, as far as I know.

Although this doesn't help you at all, I've tried out a total of four Malkoffs, and I hope nothing ever happens to this specific older M60, it's the best of the (small) lot.

jimmy1970 · Apr 14, 2009

Policetacteam said:
Can anyone with one of Gene's older, hand engraved M60's due a comparison beam shots when compared to the newer M60's. My older hand engraved M60, which was mounted in my Surefire M952, was stolen along with my rifle. Since then I have been trying to replace the M60 with one that is comparable to my old one. I am on my second "newer" M60 and I still think the hot spot is not quite a hot or as bright as the original. I remember my older M60 with a solid bright white hot spot comparable to the Fenix TK10 or EagleTac. Anyone else notice this or is just me!?!

The optics of the newer M60's has changed. The newer optics provide a larger hot spot and have moved one of the visable 'rings' of light further out providing a slightly brighter spill beam within that outer ring.

After using both, I also prefer the older style optic for it's farther reaching hot spot YMMV

You can see which one you have by determining whether your optic has a stippled appearance or a smooth one.

James...

Policetacteam · Apr 14, 2009

Thanks guys! This is all new information for me! I had no idea that the optic had been changed. I guess I assumed that with time a different bin was probably inevitable. I guess my question is if I'm looking for something to match the older style M60 is that even possible considering the newer optic and different bin?

jimmy 1970 you mentioned

The newer optics provide a larger hot spot and have moved one of the visible 'rings' of light further out providing a slightly brighter spill beam within that outer ring.

I would have no problem with a larger hot spot or having one of the visible rings of light out farther because that would probably be a benefit for my applications. I'm just looking for that hot spot to be a solid bright white circle of blinding light. The only way that I can describe the newer M60's hot spot is that its not as bright and it appears almost hollow, for lack of a better word!

With the newer optic providing a larger hot spot does that equate to less throw and slightly more flood!?!

jimmy1970 · Apr 14, 2009

Policetacteam said:
Thanks guys! This is all new information for me! I had no idea that the optic had been changed. I guess I assumed that with time a different bin was probably inevitable. I guess my question is if I'm looking for something to match the older style M60 is that even possible considering the newer optic and different bin?

jimmy 1970 you mentioned

I would have no problem with a larger hot spot or having one of the visible rings of light out farther because that would probably be a benefit for my applications. I'm just looking for that hot spot to be a solid bright white circle of blinding light. The only way that I can describe the newer M60's hot spot is that its not as bright and it appears almost hollow, for lack of a better word!

Gene was asked about the 'roundness' of the centre hot spot some time ago and he mentioned that there was a bit of a lottery going on with some drop ins having a moon shaped hot spot instead of a nice round one.

I bought a second hand engraved M60 from the MarketPlace some time ago and it has a perfectly round hot spot and a nice warmish tint - just perfect.

Just luck of the draw I guess.

Good luck with it,

James...

Policetacteam · Apr 14, 2009

Before you responded I was already thinking the same thing! I will probably have to go to the CPF market place and attempt to track down an older style M60. My newer one does have a perfectly round hot spot its just not as hot as what I had previously owned. Still looks pretty good though. I'm curious how it will look on the indoor range!?! How much throw at 50 yards? How will the newer optic perform at long ranges, 50 yds, 75 yds, etc...

Justin Case · Apr 15, 2009

IIRC, the old units used a Khatod optic, while the new ones use a Cree optic.

nfetterly · Apr 15, 2009

When I sold a Malkoff recently - I checked an old one - Q2 180 (180 lumens) - tighter hot spot than M60, sold the M60 and kept the older one. I think I have 2 of these now and no M60s.

Kestrel · Apr 15, 2009

jimmy1970 said:
The only way that I can describe the newer M60's hot spot is that its not as bright and it appears almost hollow [...]

I noticed the same thing, 'hollow' is a good description, as it wasn't dramatic enough for me to describe it as a 'donut'.

jimmy1970 said:
I bought a second hand engraved M60 from the MarketPlace some time ago and it has a perfectly round hot spot and a nice warmish tint - just perfect.

I had the same exact experience.

JNewell · Apr 15, 2009

So yellow tape label on the rim = new?

Policetacteam · Apr 15, 2009

Justin Case,

You mentioned the Khatod optic on the older versions and the Cree optic on the newer versions. I tried doing a google search but couldn't find much. Could you give me the Cliff notes comparison between the two different optics. Any idea why the switch!?! Could a different optic cause the "hollow effect" on the hot spot?

Gunner12 · Apr 15, 2009

From what I remember, Malkoff switched from a 6 degree optic to a 8 degree one. I don't know why he switched.

If you want throw and don't mind the typical ring artifact of a Cree XR-E LED, then a Dereelight drop-in with a smooth reflector might work for you. It has more throw then the Malkoff M60.

Gene43 · Apr 15, 2009

The reason for the switch was the "Cree Lottery". The "hollow" spot seems to be caused by the lottery. Some LED's appear more hollow than others. In my quest to figure out what causes the effect, I was told (by an optical engineer) that the optic appears to segregate the light somewhat by wavelength. I was told that the center does not have less light, it is just where different color waves gather and give the impression of less light. The Khatod optic bought this property out more often than the Cree optic. That was the main reason for the switch. You will find examples of M60's with both optics which are near perfect and some which are bad. I try very hard to weed out the bad ones. A few occasionally slip through (no one, especially me, is perfect). I try to cover all contingencies with the best customer service I can offer.

Thanks, Gene

Policetacteam · Apr 16, 2009

Thanks Gene,

You definitely do have the best customer service in the business! I think that's why you have a strong following on this forum and in this business. Being quite the novice this is all very interesting to me. Were the older, hand engraved M60's, much warmer than the newer ones. Also are there any older M60's laying around for sale or would I be better off checking the market place.

kyhunter1 · Apr 16, 2009

Gene,

Could you possibly make a surefire style TIR optic work with your drop in? Should solve alot of problems if it would work. I like the beam on my E1B. Would really like to see what 235 Malkoff lumens looks like thru a TIR optic! I understand that it may not be possible. Are there other optics to consider besides the cree or kahtods?

Gene43 said:
The reason for the switch was the "Cree Lottery". The "hollow" spot seems to be caused by the lottery. Some LED's appear more hollow than others. In my quest to figure out what causes the effect, I was told (by an optical engineer) that the optic appears to segregate the light somewhat by wavelength. I was told that the center does not have less light, it is just where different color waves gather and give the impression of less light. The Khatod optic bought this property out more often than the Cree optic. That was the main reason for the switch. You will find examples of M60's with both optics which are near perfect and some which are bad. I try very hard to weed out the bad ones. A few occasionally slip through (no one, especially me, is perfect). I try to cover all contingencies with the best customer service I can offer.

Thanks, Gene

txgp17 · Apr 16, 2009

I have one of the very first brass/optic M60's that actually has a P4 or Q4 emitter.

It has the hottest spot of any other M60 I own, which is about 8 total.

Gene43 · Apr 16, 2009

The older ones and the newer ones all have used the same tints. I have found that the tint can vary considerably within the same tint group. Sorry, but I don't have any of the older ones around. I would love to know what optic SureFire uses, but I suspect it is proprietary. I have piles of other optics around, but I have found that most throw oriented optics project a square (die shaped) beam full of artifacts. The ones with the best beams tend to be flood oriented. The 20 degree optic used on the M60F models always has a beautiful beam. What txgp17 posted illustrates the lottery. Every so often it kicks one out that is a real diamond.

Thanks, Gene

Kestrel · May 5, 2009

I've handled five Malkoff's now, and the following unit (an older M60 of unknown vintage) gives me the best performance - a beautiful, warm, even, centered beam with virtually no rings. Notice that the 'reflector' surface appears slightly stippled. The center post of the optic has a slight circle just inside the outer diameter. The only engraving is 'M60'. It is a choice unit that I wouldn't trade for any two other Malkoff's.

This second unit is another older unit, engraved 'M60 Q5'. The center post of the optic is completely smooth, with no feature as the above - obviously a different optic. The beam has moderate quantity of rings. Note the relatively smooth 'reflector' surface.

As both were purchased used, I would be very interested to know how each fit into the M60 timeline, if anybody has any ideas. Neither of these M60's exhibit the slightly 'hollow' hotspot (which I can see in & compare with an M30 of relatively recent production). I am also very interested to hear if the other 'choice' M60's that folks have out there have one of the the earlier optics and/or the reflector of lightly stippled appearance.
Thanks,
K
(BTW this isn't a grumpy post, I am just very interested in the M60 subsets. If I purchase any more used M60's, I want to have a good idea of what I might want to be looking for, that's all.)

Jay T · May 5, 2009

Number 2 looks like the same vintage as the M60 Q5 I reviewed in December of 07. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/183924 Wow, from 07 and it still holds up today.

One thing I have noticed with a new 09 M60 MCE is that it looks like the newer brass body had a little different taper.

The newer body seems to have less wiggle room in my 6P.

Policetacteam · May 6, 2009

Kestrel,

Great info and nice pics! I wish I still had my old M60 but it was stolen along with my rifle. Dirty *******s!!!

Old M60 vs. newer M60

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