SuperUltraMegaMag Idea...Thoughts?

I've been thinking about how it might be possible to push the Mag platform to the max. The MR16 mod is pretty nice, but I'm thinking of something different that's still free bulb-based. Here are my thoughts, so please feel free to comment.

1. Mag D body
2. Welch Allyn 01185 bulb, 817 lumens at 9.6V, 3.15A
3. Carley 1940 aluminum reflector
4. #G6766 9.6V Makita NiMH stick battery

Issues:
1. Battery connector
2. Survivability of the Mag switch
3. Socket for the 01185 T2.25 bipin bulb
4. Battery stick fit into the D body

Is there any way to make this happen? Or am I just imagining things? Don't bother suggesting just buying a Magcharger. You can fit a 6V stack in the battery compartment and that's it. This limits you to the 500 lumen 01111 and 01160 bulbs. Unless it's possible to have a body extension machined to extend it sufficiently to fit the 9.6V stick.

Wilkey

Wilkey,

I don't think I've seen any other batteries that have better high-current capabilities than those Powerstream 1/2D NiCad battlebot batteries. They're 37mm long with button tops. Eight of those cells will fit in a 5D Mag with room to spare for 9.6 volts nominal.

Best thing about these cells is their lack of voltage drop under load compared to other cells. Even with only 2.5 aH rating, they can deliver almost 100 amps if needed.

Have someone machine an entension tube to run 11 cells and you could use the 35 watt Decostar MR16 for an estimated run time of about (1) hour.

I'm using (6) in a 4D driving a TL LA or sometimes overdriving an SL35X with no problems.

John

I agree with Illuminated. I've toyed with putting a W/A 01185 bulb in a dead SL35X LA and running 8 of my Powerstream 1/2 D cells.

I also have 3 @ Nordic aluminum 3D flashlights I bought on EBAY for about $5 each a few months ago. This light has a retaining ring for a PR bulb that screws over the bulb holder post as with the Mag C and D lights. The OD is a little wider with the Nordic than with the Mag. Fortunately, the Nordic head is pretty open in the inside and can accomodate a wider aluminum reflector than the Mags can (such as the Carley 1 3/8" reflectors). The bodies on the Nordic 3D's are removable from the swith assembly just like the Nordic 3C's. This means they can be telescoped together to make a Nordic 6D or 9D with parts I currently have.

I have several Carley collimating 2" reflectors and 1 @ 3" and 1 3/8" reflectors that are at a machine shop having the center ream hole widened to 3/4". This size is large enough to allow both the Mag and Nordic retaining rings to fit inside (as well as the W/A ceramic socket.)

My sample 2" reflector is a little fussy to focus and mount to a retaining rim, because the focus point allows for only a little overlap of the reflector ream hole and the retainer ring. I'm lookin forward to getting the 3" reflector back for both a tighter focus and greater ream hold overlap. If I use either the 2" or 3" reflector, however, I will not be able to use the Nordic head which is too narrow to accomodate them.

I've looked into those Powerstream 1/2D's. Very compelling. It looks like you can buy them in sub-100 quantity because of their retail status. What would be the per unit cost?

Lemlux, what head are you planning to use with the 3" reflector? I'm thinking if I were to really go whole hog on a Mag mod, I would have a new head machined, but that would defeat the purpose of this intended mod. Did you have an angle cut on the stub so that you could retain the cam follower focusing? Are you using the Carley #1940 reflector?

Fascinating work you guys. I guess it takes a lot to come up with something novel here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wilkey

(Wilkey said)......Don't bother suggesting just buying a Magcharger. You can fit a 6V stack in the battery compartment and that's it. This limits you to the 500 lumen 01111 and 01160 bulbs. Unless it's possible to have a body extension machined to extend it sufficiently to fit the 9.6V stick.


The MagCharger is the size/weight limit for me and with the brighter MAG bulb is already a long throw champ. Are those 01111 and 001160 bulbs Carly or Welch Allyn, and how long would they run in the MagCharger with stock NiCads or PowerStreams? I also wonder about focusability and minimum order price.

If I could get 500 lumens focused as well as the current MCharger bulb I'd be a (temporarily) happy man. This would help compensate for the lack of a 500Lu Surefire designed for super long throw.

Brightnorm

Wilkey,

I think I paid $3 each for the Powerstream cells plus a flat rate $10 shipping.

Brightnorm, I believe the 01111 and the 01160 lamps are Welch-Allyn part numbers.

John

The only problem is getting small numbers of the Welch Allyn bulbs. While the 01185 is only $2.20 a piece, the minimum order is $100 and I don't know what it would cost to get potting in a PR base. I have not as yet been able to find a retail (web or otherwise) that carries the 01xxx series. You can find plenty of suppliers for their medical device lamps though.

Carley is willing to Pot W/A bulbs into a ceramic PR base for $1.65 per bulb.

My 2" Carley Parabolic Collimating Reflectors with Set Screw are part #RF1940. They cost $6.13 @ more than half a year ago.

My 3" Carley Parabolic Collimating Reflector with Set Screw is part #RF2102. It cost $14.67.

Carley apparently has reinstituted a $50 minimum order in recent weeks.

I'm kicking myself for not having bought any 01185 bulbs in my last buy. I did get a few of the 9.6 V 1.93 A 534 lumen 01318 bulbs because 20 Watts is as high as I can run in my UKE 1200 8*D pistol grip dive light out of water without melting the lens. (I usually run the UKE light with NiMHs. I also have some W/A 01171 9.6 V 1.33 A 314 Lumen bulbs that can run in this light with alkaline D's) This W/A 01171 bulb might conceivably be the brightest < 12 V bulb that could be put in a Carley 912 PR base adapter without melting it. (Carley specs 1.0 Amp max for the 912 adapter but unofficially says that 1.1 A to 1.2 Amps work fine.)

During my last order from Welch Allyn back in
December I also bought some 01274 7.2 V 2.77 A 553 Lumen 40 hour bulbs. (Most of these will go to Carley to be ceramically potted. Mr. Bulk has dibs on all of these that I don't keep.) This bulb is interesting in that I'm interpolating that 7 @ 1/2 D cells, 7 @ sub C cells or 4 @ 123 cells should drive this bulb at about 8V at about 780 lumen for about a 12 hour life. Mr. Bulk intends to turn his into the ultimate short run time Mag 2C. I intend to run this bulb in a Nordic 3C flashlight extended by a second Nordic 3C battery chamber and loaded with 7 @ 3000 mAh Sub C NiMhs. (As Mr Bulk showed us, the Nordics can be combined with multiple bodies.)

I already have epoxied a dead SF L/A bored out in the center to the top of a Nordic PR base retainer ring. This will handle the heat and give an acceptable beam even if I can't make one of the Carley reflector options work better.

Ginseng:

Several Months Ago I outbid elektrolumens on EBAY for an unopened 40 or 50 year old 5 * D Chromed Radio Shack flashlight with a a 3" head and glass lens.

This is the only light I have where I might enclose the 3" reflector. Otherwise, I'm likely to mount it to one of my modded Big Beam 166 compact hand held lanterns where the factory sealed beam unit goes. I have made 6 * D, 7 * C, 8 * C, and 12 * Sub C NiMH battery packs with Tamaya RC connectors that fit in the space for the original 6V lantern battery. I've wired a female Tamaya connector inside the Big Beam battery case to accept whatever battery pack I want to put in there.

Nice old Big Beams are frequently available on EBAY for between $5 and $10 and make very nice mod platforms.

For further example, the 4.5 V 0.5 A sealed beam lamp can be replaced with a form fitting VNSP 36PAR36 500 Lumen 2000 hour 12 V 3.0 A halogen lamp. ("VNSP" stands for very narrow spot light of about 9 degrees.) I drive one of these with the 12 * Sub C packs at > 13 V and > 700 Lumen.

I use the same lamp and battery combination in a 30 year old Dacor dive light that used the same sealed beam lamp with 6 V lantern battery.

Another of my Big Beams has a 7 * C battery pack in it. I replaced the lamp on this one by wiring a Surefire 3P body in the lamp holder location. I usually screw on a SF turbohead and run the 500 Lumen N62 LA. For longer run time I use a MN61.

I'm aware that Carley has an unofficial limit of about 1.2 amps for their PR base adaptor. Since the potting they do is ceramic-based, does that mean it will resist a greater load, perhaps in the range of 2-3 amps?

Wouldn't the 4x123 be a bit higher than 8V?

The WA 01171 seems to be a pretty darn close match to the Carley 809. One slightly higher V and lower A than the other. About the same power consumption.

In your experience, what is the maximum current draw that CR123's can support in intermittent usage, say, 15 second squirts at a time? What about for several continuous minutes?

I have come to the conclusion that there are only two significant barriers to being able to belt out a ton of light from a Mag platform.

1. The reflector melts
2. Providing sufficient current

On point 1, if we were able to somehow generate a formula (perhaps using the Carley #1940 as a starting point) for a drop-in reflector upgrade, there just might be a demand.

On point 2, if we could define the maximum current draw for those two scenarios I described above, we might be able to provide a clear breakpoint as to when the "simple" CR123 option gives way to the "somewhat more complicated" option of a sub-C's either free or in a stack.

I'm wondering if it might be worthwhile to solicit people to send in their dead Tigerlight LAs so we can use them as the basis for a rebuilt reflector/lamp assembly. i.e. epoxy or J-B Weld a reamed out TL LA onto a Carley 912 PR adapter and plug in a WA 01171, C 809 or WA 01112 and away you go.

Wilkey

Brightnorm,

That Magcharger kit that made it through B/S/T last week was what you're looking for. It came with the WA 01111 and 01160 bulbs, both of which make around 500 lumens at 6V. I think jtivat said the runtime was about 50 minutes, but don't quote me. You might seek him out to get his thoughts on this.

Wilkey

Ginseng:

Brock has measured 4 * 123 cells driving the 3.7 A N62 at 7.65 V and the 2.3 A MN61at 8.35 V. Perhaps 2.77 A would result in voltage drop to a little over 8.0 V but it would still be considerably below 8.35 V.

The 3.7 A N62 bulb will cause thermal shutdown in the 123's in about 3 minutes. The SF 2.3 Amp bulbs don't cause thermal shutdown. The 2.77 Amp bulb may or may not cause thermal shutdown.

Carley says that ceramic potting can handle any of their bulbs, including the #852 6.0 V 3.30 A halogen that puts out 500 Lumen.

Last year I asked Mag's VP of sales how much current the Mag D switch assembly could handle. This would, presumably, be the limiting factor. He said he didn't know because Mag had only tested continuous useage at 2.0 Amps.

Worst case you could also epoxy a bored-out SF reflector to the Mag PR retaining rim. I think the Carley 1" reflector fits and I forget if the 1 3/8" reflector fits.

I think that Makita pack uses two rows of sub-C cells (around 20mm diameter) which means there's no way they'll fit in a D tube (34mm diameter or so). Makita itself makes a flashlight/work light that uses those battery sticks. Perhaps it could used as a mod platform instead of a Mag.

There's a thread from a couple weeks ago about someone machining a 4C tube extender to turn a 2C Mag into a 6C. He used it on a Space Needle II so he could run the SN2 on either 3x123 or 6C by switching tubes. Doing something similar with a Magcharger sounds reasonable. The Magcharger already has a metal reflector and takes bi-pin bulbs, from what I understand. That gets rid of the need for potting.

I think enough people are interested in these mods that a group buy to meet the Carley or W/A minimum purchases would probably work out ok. Maybe some CPF dealer could even order a bunch of bulbs and retail them.

PaulR,

We just wrapped up a group buy for over $300 of Carley bulbs. It wasn't all that visible because it was embedded in the monstrous "285 Lumen Mag C" thread.

Lemlux,

So the current bubble seems to pop around 2.5A give or take. If that's the case, it opens the door to quite a few more bulb options...for manufacturer potted lamps. In that case, I could definitely see the WA 01125 in my 6x123 Mag 4C.

Wilkey

Ginseng:

Consider using 1.4 Ah Pila 68 mm by 16.5 mm Li-Ions or 1.8 Ah 68 mm by 18.5 mm Li-Ions. A pair of the 1.4 A batteries seem to deliver about 3.15 V to 3.2 V per cell to the 2.3 Amp SF P91 LA at 1.64 C. Perhaps these cells would put out close to 3.0 V at 2.0C. 2.0C seems to be as far as Li-Ions want to be discharged.

Three of the 1.8 Ah Li-Ions in a Mag 4C (or Nordic 3D) might drive a W/A 01185 PR 3.15 A bulb at just under design voltage for 20 minutes or so at 1.75C. (Li-Ion data sheet curves suggest they deliver almost their full capacity at up to 1.0 C. Delivered capacity drops off to about 80% at 1.5 C --) I could also probably use 3 of my 1.4 mAh Li-Ion cells to slightly overdrive my 9.6V 1.93 V W/A 01318 bulbs at > 550 Lumen at 1.38 C in the same hosts.

lemlux,

I do not understand the terminology "1.38 C"

Wilkey

"C" stands for capacity in Ah or mah.

1.38 C was arrived at by dividing the 1.93 A current by the 1.4 Ah capacity.

Li-Ions deliver close to the rated 3.7 V per cell at loads of up to 1.0 C. The voltage drops off at an increasing rate at loads of up to 2.0 C.

I must have read 20 posts referring to C in this manner before I figured it out.

I may as well mention again that you can get a pair of 1800 mAH long-fat-A sized 3.6V Li ion cells by buying a Nokia 5100-series ultra-extended battery pack for $10 or so from newegg.com or various ebay dealers. You have to pry the pack apart and unsolder the tabbed cells from each other, but it's a lot cheaper than Pila cells.

Thanks all for helpful info.

Brightnorm

Thanks for the clarification Lemlux.

But doesn't 1.93 amp/1.4 amp-hour yield units of inverse hour? That's a unit of rate and not a unit of capacity. I must be missing something.

If instead, the calculation were 1.4Ah (the fixed capacity of the battery) divided by 1.93A (the variable current draw based on the load/bulb in the circuit), then the resulting number has units of "hours". In this case, it becomes a time-based quantity of capacity. Also, if the variable which is the current load goes up, then the resulting value goes down. A change in a direction that makes sense. For example:

Case 1: 1.4Ah battery, 1.93A load

C* = 1.4Ah/1.93A = 0.725h

Case 2: 1.4Ah battery, 3.23A load

C* = 1.4Ah/3.23A = 0.433h

The implication is that if the current draw in A is the exact same number as the battery capacity in Ah, you'll have a normalized run time of 1 hour.

Wilkey