Brightest Photon LED colour on CR2032?

weineck

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Hello,

I recently picked up a white GS Photon Freedom and I'm loving this little light! I use it more than any of my other lights now, as it's so small there's simply no excuse not to carry it.

I tried putting a single 2032 battery in place of the 2x2016's. It works well, comparing it to my E01 I'd say it's putting out around 2-3 lumens. May not sound like much, but it is just enough to not trip over stuff in the dark outside, and is plenty inside. And on the lowest setting it puts out about the same amount of light as my watch's EL light. Nice!

Now I want to see if I can get more brightness out of a Photon while sticking with the 2032 battery. Which colour is the brightest? I figure colour rendition isn't that important (for me at least) at these low brightness levels, so if there's something that works better than white on a 2032 then I'd like to get it!
 

Flying Turtle

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I think the yellow may be the brightest overall on a CR2032. Not long ago I picked up an orange Photon Freedom, as a way to use up a surplus of 2032's, and I figured it would be a bit brighter/more usable than red. Works great, and I like the color, but yellow may have more punch.

Geoff
 

weineck

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Thanks for the quick response! Yellow it is then.

Anyone have any idea what the current draw would be for the yellow LED in the Freedom?
 

Burgess

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Hold it !


I can tell you, from my own experience,

that the Yellow version of the Photon Max

is VERY dim, and borderline " useless ".



And, believe me, i certainly am quite a fan

of low light levels.



Think you are much better off using the White, with a 2032 cell.


(In my Humble opinion)

_
 

tygger

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No no no. Yellow is actually the dimmest out of the Photons that accept CR2032's, (except UV of course). I actually love it. IMO, the order of brightness goes; ORANGE, RED, then YELLOW. The yellow also has a more narrow beam profile than the others. Oh, and don't forget about the 1/2 power trick (visible brightness is virtually the same) for super long runtimes.
 

MKLight

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Have there been any updates to the yellow LED in the Photon Freedom? I have one from when the Freedom's first came out. It was brightish in the day...it's not very now. I was thinking of getting another if the LED has become more efficient....meaning brighter...:)

Thanks in advance!
 

tygger

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Good question. It might be worth an email to LRI to find out though. I bought my Photon Freedom from BatteryJunction a year ago and it's still pretty dim.
 

weineck

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Thanks for the replies everyone, that saved me from a probably disappointing purchase!

So if I go for the orange, how much brighter will it be compared to the white on a 2032?
 

tygger

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Thanks for the replies everyone, that saved me from a probably disappointing purchase!

So if I go for the orange, how much brighter will it be compared to the white on a 2032?

The orange would be at least 2-3X as bright as a white (DS) Photon Freedom using one CR2032. Are you using CR2032's in the white because you want longer runtime? IIRC, Chevrofreak or someone else did a runtime test when the new White (DS) Photon Freedoms came out and it basically showed dramatically increased efficiency compared to the older CS version. The output and runtime on 2 CR2016's is so improved that it made using one CR2032 not really worth it. Even more so if you use the 50% power mode.
 

weineck

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The orange would be at least 2-3X as bright as a white (DS) Photon Freedom using one CR2032. Are you using CR2032's in the white because you want longer runtime? IIRC, Chevrofreak or someone else did a runtime test when the new White (DS) Photon Freedoms came out and it basically showed dramatically increased efficiency compared to the older CS version. The output and runtime on 2 CR2016's is so improved that it made using one CR2032 not really worth it. Even more so if you use the 50% power mode.
I have seen the test you're talking about, and I've gotta admit it is pretty convincing (credit goes to 'this_is_nascar' for that one). However, I do like the convenience of just pressing the button and getting 3 lumens rather than having to dial up or down each time. There still is a runtime benefit as well, plus the LED runs well within spec and alot more efficiently. I'm just looking for those benefits with a bit more brightness.

Maybe I'm being too paranoid though. Is there any actual damage caused to the Nichia's when they're overdriven in the Photon's on 2016's?
 

Flying Turtle

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Sorry to steer you wrong about the yellow. I'm glad that was corrected before you pulled the trigger. I was speaking only from a dim memory of how those early yellow Photons used to look.

Geoff
 

tygger

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I have seen the test you're talking about, and I've gotta admit it is pretty convincing (credit goes to 'this_is_nascar' for that one). However, I do like the convenience of just pressing the button and getting 3 lumens rather than having to dial up or down each time. There still is a runtime benefit as well, plus the LED runs well within spec and alot more efficiently. I'm just looking for those benefits with a bit more brightness.

Ah, right. Thanks.


Maybe I'm being too paranoid though. Is there any actual damage caused to the Nichia's when they're overdriven in the Photon's on 2016's?

Maybe some, but I imagine voltage sag makes the abuse more tolerable after 5 min. or so of constant on. Then again, my ArcAAA P has been overdriven for years on an L92 and its still a bright mofo. I do see your point about using a CR2032. Turn on, no fussing with adjustments, slightly increased runtime, and battery compatibility with lots of other lights. Come to think of it, having to keep 2 sets of Photon batteries is a bit of a chore. For my use, (can't bring myself to turn them on in full power mode anymore), the PWM should lessen any potential damage to the LED.
 

Sub_Umbra

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Brightest Photon LED colour on CR2032?

Good question. If all factors were equal I'd trip over myself saying NV Green (it's actually cyan). Unfortunately I doubt that the NV green LEDs are as advanced at what LRI is using for the white lights. If you could get your hands on one of the same blue LEDs that are turned into white (for PFs) by doping with yellow, that would be brighter than white, considerably brighter. All white LEDs are actually blue LEDs doped with yellow -- about 40% of their brightness is lost in the color conversion from blue to white. The problem with this is similar to that of NV Green -- I don't know if those LEDs have advanced at the same rate as what they are using for the white PFs. They would both outperform white with a cr2032 if the LEDs they're using have advanced as far as the white ones have.

I've kept a covert nose NV Green PF on a cr2032 on a short ss bead chain around my neck for years. For me it is the handiest dim light I have. I light it up more than all of my other lights combined. The color shifts a bit towards green because the voltage is halved with the cr2032 but there is still quite a bit of blue left and I find it very useful.

I did a runtime test with an NV Green PF with a cr2032 a few years ago. The light went 24/7 without any significant dimming until I finally got bored and put the light back into service after 12 days. I didn't even change out the test cell.
 
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weineck

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Very interesting info Sub_Umbra! 12 days of runtime with plenty to spare is amazing. Although would the NV Green on a 2032 really be brighter than the orange? I figured that as the orange has a much lower Vf, depsite it's lower maximum brightness, would be the better choice on the single 2032. Or is the eye's greater sensitivity to cyan coming into play here?

Sorry to steer you wrong about the yellow. I'm glad that was corrected before you pulled the trigger. I was speaking only from a dim memory of how those early yellow Photons used to look.
No worries. I originally thought yellow as well, based on what I read off the photon website. Although I still haven't decided which colour is going to work best for me!

Then again, my ArcAAA P has been overdriven for years on an L92 and its still a bright mofo.
That's a good point. Thinking about it though, do single 5mm LEDs benefit at all from heatsinking at all? If so would the Arc be better than the Photon in that respect?
 

Sub_Umbra

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...Although would the NV Green on a 2032 really be brighter than the orange? I figured that as the orange has a much lower Vf, depsite it's lower maximum brightness, would be the better choice on the single 2032. Or is the eye's greater sensitivity to cyan coming into play here?...
Ding, ding, ding, ding -- I think we have a winner here. J/K -- I've always wanted to post that. :D The orange light may have to be brighter than the cyan to compensate for the fact that orange light is so much harder to see with (for shape recognition.) To put it another way, the orange PF may be brighter than the cyan PF but that does not automatically mean that you will be able to see better with it. For me, cyan wins because I find it so much easier to see with at lower output levels.

Actually, I think that more than one factor comes into play on this question and the deeper one digs into the use of monochromatic colors in the real world the more difficult it will be to precisely quantify all of those factors.

Some of you who read this post will probably strongly disagree but I'm ok with that. YMMV. I'm just facinated with this subject -- it's got more bends and twists than a girl learning to curtsy.

First, lets tackle the more concrete issues.
  • Conversion-
    • Monochromatic B/C/G LEDs will have a chance of out performing a white LED in brightness if we assume that both LEDs represent the same state of advancement in LED technology because the conversion to white involves a performance hit in the process. As mentioned above if the blue PFs had the same LEDs that the white ones in the PFs are based on -- they would definately be brighter. While I doubt that the various colors available are a sample of the same level of technology I wish I had one of each for an eyeball test. I'd rather rely on my eyes than on the raw numbers on this one.
  • Voltage-
    • I don't think that the lower voltage is as big an issue with the non-R/O/Y lights as it may seem. Even with one cr2032 the circuit will still get 3V. It's not the stock 6V -- but then none of them need 6V either.
  • Sensitivity-
    • Things are getting muddier as we go down the list. First, here's an interesting sensitivity chart which shows both the scotopic and photopic curves together:
      lumeff_2.gif

      While it's depiction of sensitivity (in shape recognition) of the greens and cyans is quite dramatic (and true) the chart can't really tell the full story. Below is a chart that will give you a ballpark idea of how many nanometers a given LED may be. This is all anything but precise but it may still be helpful when you're trying to see where a given color falls on the first chart.
      visible_02.jpg

      One must also bear in mind that in order to get meaningful numbers for B/C/G PFs running on cr2032s you won't be able to use the published wavelengths for those LEDs -- you'll have to swap out the stock pairs of cr2016s that they came with for cr2032s and then compare the actual beam with the second chart to find out what color the LEDs are actually putting out at the lower voltage. Armed with that info one may then go back to the first chart to see how sensitive the human eye is to that color.
  • Semantics-
    • Speaking of muddy, any discussion of monochromatic lights as dim as PFs run on cr2032s needs to briefly touch on what most light manufacturers call "red." In any group of people discussing dim lights, some will be there because they want to preserve dark adapted vision. Most lights sold as red have shorter wavelengths than the sensitivity cutoff of the rods -- ~640nm. Most lights advertised as red are actually in the 625-630nm (orange/red) range and may still impact the rods. The color chart above doesn't show any difference but it is the best chart I could find. I don't know the wavelength of the red PF. The only light I know of sold with true red LEDs is from Rigel (660nm).

      I think that this is important enough to touch on when comparing the brightness of red and orange/red. The more orange a light is the brighter it will seem when compared to a true red because true reds are so very hard to see with -- so is orange, for that matter.
  • Practice and experience-
    • And now to the muddiest part... IMO the most subjective aspect of all of this has to do with how much experience and practice one has with these colors. That may not seem important, but it is. Look at where we all come from and what we have the most experience with. It is very tempting to just hold all light to the same standard, the light that we're most used to -- the bright, floody, white light from the sun. We all developed a preference for that kind of light years before we ever got our first flashlights. Many will pick up their first monochromatic light, switch it on and decide instantly that it is of no value and often this decision is based completely on the fact that it is so different than what they have grown accustomed to for all these years.

My perspective on monochromatic lights is different than most because of where my life took me and the colored lights I had to learn to use in various jobs. I spent years in one profession where I had to use red lights on an ongoing basis. (They were actually orange/red lights but blessedly no one knew that. :D ) I also worked in another profession for years where I had to become proficient at accomplishing tasks with blue lights. At that job I also learned that there actually was something that people call a trained eye. I still find this very interesting and continue to use and experiment with monochromatic lights even though I haven't needed to use them on a job in 15 years or so.

Aside from ~625nm (orange/red) and ~455nm (royal blue) I've also spent years using and experimenting with ~525nm (green) and ~495nm (cyan).

I bring this up because those who work with these lights on a continuing basis are definitely going to use them differently and even see differently with them than those who only use them occasionally. It is a factor that cannot be dismissed IMO.

Thanks for reading
 
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weineck

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Wow, what a post, thanks! Like you said, a lot of 'muddy' factors to consider here. Makes deciding even more difficult! The cyan does sound really good though. Maybe I will put the 2x2016's back into the white PF, and get a NV green on a 2032 to complement it as well.

Thank you to everyone for your input!
 

Sub_Umbra

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Wow, what a post, thanks! Like you said, a lot of 'muddy' factors to consider here. Makes deciding even more difficult! The cyan does sound really good though. Maybe I will put the 2x2016's back into the white PF, and get a NV green on a 2032 to complement it as well...

I would love to hear about real world comparisons between current NV green and white PFs. Try a few different things. Besides full brightness comparisons try sitting in the dark for just 5 min and then testing them by ramping up bit by bit from off instead of going full on and then ramping down the output, which won't tell you as much.

Also, if you're buying PFs you should check out the PF page at BatteryJunction. MattK's PFs have got to have the best price of any out there -- they're close to half the regular price and that's for the full retail kit with all the accessories like everyone else sells. I started out very cautiously with BatteryJunction a few years ago and I've now bought a bunch of PFs, cells, ZTS testers and even a charger from him and I have yet to be dissapointed.

PS: Covert nose rocks for dim light usage. It's well worth the extra $1.50 IMO.
 
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gaiageek

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Just came across this thread, and I'm wondering if anyone ever did further comparison with different light colors on 2032 batteries.

The color (wavelength) sensitivity topic raises an interesting point: because our eyes are more sensitive to light in the blue-green spectrum, we might be able to get usable brightness from those lights with minimum power consumption, perhaps making them the ideal choice for survival situations where battery life is an issue. The 12 day (288 hour) run-time of the NV green on a 2032 battery mentioned above is well over the 120 hours (manufacturer rated) that the red, orange and yellow get on a 2032 - and that run-time test wasn't even concluded. If you consider that our sensitivity to that color would allow use of the light at dimmer settings, there's the potential to get far more life out of a single 2032 battery.

I do wonder how the standard green Photon would perform on a 2032 in terms of battery life, since it's stated as being more efficient than the other colors and getting 20 hours on 2x2016 batteries (compared with 12 for the others that run on 2x2016). From the Photon Freedom color specs on photonlight.com:
Green LED Beam. The green light is nearly as bright as the blue, turquoise, and white lights while offering a slightly longer battery life. Because the green LED bulb tends to be a bit more efficient than the other colors, it can run for up to 20 hours with one set of batteries. 525 nm.
On a 2032 the light would be shifted toward yellow I imagine and away from the sweet spot of 507nm, but still closer to the peak than yellow, orange or red.
 

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