LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

HarryN

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Hi, There are not a lot of posts about the LedEngin products but they are actually quite interesting. They feature quite low thermal resistance, use a glass lens (cover) and have quite reasonable output.

I would like, if it is ok, to get a thread going about information for using these LED packages. (sort of like the similar K2 Information Thread) This would include questions / inputs about mechanical aspects, drivers, and optics / reflectors.

In my particular case, I am mostly interested in the 10 watt part and how to manage the light (optics / reflectors), but feel free to post on the other versions if you wish.

Just to kick things off, here is a link to their web site product list.

http://ledengin.com/led_products.php
 

saabluster

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Have you seen how much space is in between the dies?:faint: Talk about a doughnut. I don't think anyone sees why it would be better to have one of these instead of a MC-E or P7.
 

csshih

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I've had one of those LEDs.. nifty little thing.. I remember it ran extremely hot :shrug:

the new multicolor MC-E should work better
 

HarryN

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Have you seen how much space is in between the dies?:faint: Talk about a doughnut. I don't think anyone sees why it would be better to have one of these instead of a MC-E or P7.

That is an interesting point saabluster, and it might explain why there is so little posted about it. The aspects that I like about it
- The extremely low thermal resistance - about 1/2 of many packages
- Much tougher "lens"
- Thermal isolation of the phos from the die

I know that they have been playing with the lens optics to work on beam shaping, so maybe that helps with die spacing. :shrug:

Frankly, I also like the fact that the die are US made (Cree die I am pretty sure) and they are also packaged in the US (CA). I have been to the factory a few times - kind of neat. (no free samples though)

csshih - I am just curious - what did you do for optics / reflector, thermal path and driver for this package ? Any pics / suggestions ?
 

moviles

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kaszeta

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I haven't yet used the 10 watt package, but I use the 15 watt UV and Dental blue ones pretty often at work.

What's good:

1. Packaging on the 15 watt unit is really nice (+/- leads mounted on a flexible ribbon).
2. Thermal resistance to the base is really, really low, so just mounting these on a good heat sink seems to provide adequate cooling despite their generating a lot of heat

What's frustrating:
1. The UV ones have a 65 degree half angle or so spread. Not bad for a lot of applications, but very difficult to focus down if you want a tight beam. I've had some decent luck using some FCM series lenses from Fraen to concentrate the 15W light output down to a 8 degree cone.

I've been trying to get some really high UV densities (I'm shooting for around 20-30 emitted UV watts focused down to a few mm^2), and these haven't been a bad starting point for my efforts.

If anyone else is running something with at least 3 or 4 of the 15 W units, I'd be interested in knowing what drivers they are using (I'm using a really beefy bench supply at the moment)

Here's my "Dental Blue" module:

4222_12-22b.jpg
 

saabluster

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- The extremely low thermal resistance - about 1/2 of many packages
- Much tougher "lens"
- Thermal isolation of the phos from the die

I know that they have been playing with the lens optics to work on beam shaping, so maybe that helps with die spacing. :shrug:
You are right that it does have a very low thermal resistance. But it doesn't really seem to be helping them. The MC-E has a glass lens also but is not saddled with a pasture in between the dies. And the thermal isolation of the phosphor is nice and good for fixed lighting but has no real benefit for portable lighting. The gap in the dies is a real big deal here. It is a deal breaker. And as moviles mentioned driving these would be difficult in most lights. There is a very good reason you do not see these in lights.
 

HarryN

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the 10w and 15w version are powered@12v:thumbsdow

I want a sst-50 and sst-90 now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/224644

Hi, this is an incomplete understanding of the packages and test conditions.

The data sheet shows that each LED die is individually powered with its own pads. There are two star versions, one for driving them in parallel, one for driving them in series.

The die binning for Vf is quite tight, and is tested both "per die" and "as a package in series. It is the "in series" Vf that is reported. The Vf of this is going to be in the same range of any other power LED package.

One of the things I like is that they are really paying attention to Vf. Cree makes nice products, but one thing that always bothered me is that they kind of go to some bother to not spec Vf - kind of annoying to someone used to buying premium binned Lumileds products.

I don't disagree that the SST packages are very interesting, and it is not my goal to cut down anyone's products, rather, I am just trying to gather experiences and technical info on the product in one place.

It could well be that this is a great package for general lighting as you have noted. That would fit into the general nature of this forum, as we certainly have a general lighting category here. I don't use 5mm LEDs to power flashlights either, but that doesn't make them uninteresting for the right application.

You might be interested to know that my initial impression of the Cree packages, especially their initial 1 die packages, was that they were better suited for general lighting than flashlights. My wife, who cares very little about flashlights, was watching me test them against a Lux III (several years ago). The Cree package produced a soft white light effect due to putting the phos on the inside of the dome, while the Lux III package was clearly a hard white effect - more like an uncoated light bulb. The strong blue ring effect, common at that time, did not show up until you used a reflector with it, making them nearly useless with reflector applications.

At that time, Cree's package had not yet caught up with PL, so they have come a long way.

Coming back to the optical aspects - has anyone actually tried putting a reflector or optic on this package?
 
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csshih

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csshih - I am just curious - what did you do for optics / reflector, thermal path and driver for this package ? Any pics / suggestions ?


Sorry.. I played with it a while back before I found CPF.. :O

I had it AA'd to a PC heatsink... and DD'd individual dies for short periods of time.. let's see if I can dig up a pic..


eh..
only a pic from my old sale thread of the emitter..

IMG_4571-800.jpg
 
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I own 5x of the 660nm 10W LedEngin LEDs. I originally bought 4 for use with a grow light but one suffered 'pad breakthrough' and shorted out.

This is due to my error, I'm sure- I use a multi meter to test that none of the pads were grounded and I'm guessing I poked it hard enough to go through the resist into the aluminum base. Why it happened on one and not all 4 I don't know, but it did.

The chips have a remarkably low c/w which allows a simple aluminum bar and heat sink to passively cool them. I have not hooked up a whisker/rice thermister to measure the temperature but use of an optical IR meter (insert reliability jokes here) states they do not exceed 130F after several hours of use in an open environment.

Soldering them was difficult as you might expect for such a highly efficient thermal pad.

They're running 2x2 with a 40W Xitanium driver- so not getting a full 1A each.

My plants like them- home grown lettuce did quite nicely.

I hope to purchase some Ledli optical reflectors at some point and rework the whole unit- but that'll be another day in another basement I hope.

Jason

-edit: Oh yeah, you can not buy replacement MCPB boards. I've tried and I did just find a note from LedEngin that they might have one to send me- there are specific boards because the contacts have to be soldered in place... not for the home user I'm told.
 
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HarryN

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Hi Jason - Thanks for the post info.

When you talk about the contacts - are you talking about the contacts on the LED emitter version or the board?

I was planning to use solder paste to solder them on to a board. Did you use this method or something else?

Thanks

HarryN
 

HarryN

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I haven't yet used the 10 watt package, but I use the 15 watt UV and Dental blue ones pretty often at work.

If anyone else is running something with at least 3 or 4 of the 15 W units, I'd be interested in knowing what drivers they are using (I'm using a really beefy bench supply at the moment)

Hi Kasteta - Thank you for posting that info here, and welcome to CPF.

Since you are running up around 50 - 60 watts, I think you are in Xitanium driver territory. They come in various power levels, some wtih dimming. I know that leddynamics carries at least one model. They are made by advanced transformer.

Good luck with your project and let us know you it works out.
 
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Hi Jason - Thanks for the post info.

When you talk about the contacts - are you talking about the contacts on the LED emitter version or the board?

I was planning to use solder paste to solder them on to a board. Did you use this method or something else?

Thanks

HarryN

I ordered MPCB serially connected devices. So I broke through the solder pads on the aluminum board. I have not removed the LED /dies from that one yet.
 

FernanDEL

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I haven't yet used the 10 watt package, but I use the 15 watt UV and Dental blue ones pretty often at work.

What's good:

1. Packaging on the 15 watt unit is really nice (+/- leads mounted on a flexible ribbon).
2. Thermal resistance to the base is really, really low, so just mounting these on a good heat sink seems to provide adequate cooling despite their generating a lot of heat

What's frustrating:
1. The UV ones have a 65 degree half angle or so spread. Not bad for a lot of applications, but very difficult to focus down if you want a tight beam. I've had some decent luck using some FCM series lenses from Fraen to concentrate the 15W light output down to a 8 degree cone.

I've been trying to get some really high UV densities (I'm shooting for around 20-30 emitted UV watts focused down to a few mm^2), and these haven't been a bad starting point for my efforts.

If anyone else is running something with at least 3 or 4 of the 15 W units, I'd be interested in knowing what drivers they are using (I'm using a really beefy bench supply at the moment)

I'm interested by LZ4-00xx15 series but i don't know how the plug that (i have no knowledge in electronic). Ideally i want to plug a group of 3 and a group 6 on each powersupply, but if it more simple, i will be happy to connect them individually.

I want to use these 15w leds at their max power 1500mA, somebody tell me that i need driver for that and he suggest to use KONLUX DC 1500mA.
What i understand is i need one per Led and i have to find a powersupply with enough power to connect driver and cpu cooler.

If somebody can help me to open the Doors, because i need to Light my fire. ;-)
 

HarryN

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I'm interested by LZ4-00xx15 series but i don't know how the plug that (i have no knowledge in electronic). Ideally i want to plug a group of 3 and a group 6 on each powersupply, but if it more simple, i will be happy to connect them individually.

I want to use these 15w leds at their max power 1500mA, somebody tell me that i need driver for that and he suggest to use KONLUX DC 1500mA.
What i understand is i need one per Led and i have to find a powersupply with enough power to connect driver and cpu cooler.

If somebody can help me to open the Doors, because i need to Light my fire. ;-)


Hi FernanDEL - nice project.

With those kind of power needs, I am assuming that you are plugging it into a wall socket? There are AC drivers out there, Xitanium type. I think LEDSupply sells them, or at least can refer you to someone that does.

It might be possible to run several fully in series, but I think the Xitaniums max is around 25 - 30 volts Vf, so that is perhaps 8 junctions at full power.

Take care,

Harry
 

FernanDEL

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Hi FernanDEL - nice project.

With those kind of power needs, I am assuming that you are plugging it into a wall socket? There are AC drivers out there, Xitanium type. I think LEDSupply sells them, or at least can refer you to someone that does.

It might be possible to run several fully in series, but I think the Xitaniums max is around 25 - 30 volts Vf, so that is perhaps 8 junctions at full power.

Take care,

Harry
I presume i need this one for my 1500mA:

40-Watt Xitanium LED Driver Features:
Output Current: 1750mA
Input Voltage: 120VAC 50-60Hz
OutPut Voltage: 24VDC
Output Power: 40W
No Lead
UL Class 2 - Outdoor Rated

It's 60$
Ok i can easyly plug 6 led, is it enough power for 6 CPU coolers too ? What i understand is i have to use resistance to balance power right ?

Thanks
 
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FernanDEL

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What i understand now it's i'm no need power to cool the leds :

ECC-00499-01-GP (13.5W)

Dimension 35f x 200 mm
Heat sink Al. base + Heat pipe
Finish Painting Color
LED type LZ4-x0xx15
Thermal resistance* RT=3.1°C/W


Now i have to find how to balance power of the 40-Watt Xitanium LED Driver for having the best luminous performance without stressing the leds.

I will use 4 x LZ4-00R215 deep red (no spec) and 2 x LZ4-00B215 blue. What i don't understand in the specs is the bin code - Is it related to part revision, more recent are more performant ?

Any help are welcome ;-)
 

FernanDEL

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What i understand about electricity now is when i plug serial i add volt and when i plug parallel i add amp. For plugin 6 ledengin 15watts i have 4 possibilities (6 serial, 6 paralllel, 3 par. x 2 serial) and 2 par. x 3 serial). The problem is wattage, How many watts is needed for each solution.

Somebody know ?

PS: Ledengin Bin code is related to production batch if you are lucky you can get a good batch, or you can wait for a production reach your specificity.
 
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bshanahan14rulz

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Watts is Current times Voltage (P=I*V)

if an individual LED pulls 700mA (0.7A) at 3.6V, it uses 2.52W (3.6*0.7=2.52)

if 3 of these LEDs are in series, their voltages add up (as you already know) So:
3.6+3.6+3.6=10.8V total voltage "dropped" by the string.
current flows through the whole string, the whole string sees 0.7A.
Now, crunch the numbers to get 7.56W used by this string of 3.

if 3 of these same LEDs are paralleled, their current adds up. So:
Each loop of the circuit goes from battery, through one LED, and back to battery. Since it only goes through one LED, the voltage dropped is 3.6V.
Current adds up when it has to split like that, so 0.7+0.7+0.7 = 2.1A.
Crunching the numbers gets you 7.56W used by these 3 LEDs in parallel.

You will notice, using the same components but arranging them differently will yield the same amount of power. In fact, if you multiply the 2.52 we got in the first example by 3, we get 7.56 since there are 3 LEDs instead of just one!

test is next week you better study!
 

FernanDEL

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test is next week you better study!

Thanks prof, but the initial question is how to plug 6 ledengin 15w at 1500mA and 15v.

I have already said that i have no knowledge in electricity nor electronic, but by the way it looks like that i will reach the solution by myself. ;-)

At this time, i dunno if it work but i find a power supply near what i want.

With a PowerPartners Model Number PPLC100S278SS :
Current (1) : 2780 mA
Input Voltage : 90 ~ 264 Vac
Max. Output Voltage : 36 Vdc
Max. Output Power : 100 W
Typical Efficiency (2) : 91%
Power Factor
120Vac : 0.99
220Vac : 0.96
----

I think i can plug 2 parallel of 3 series, i'm near 1500 mA per Led and maybe it's possible to ajust the voltage excedent, right ?
 
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