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Thread: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

  1. #1
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    Default LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Hi, There are not a lot of posts about the LedEngin products but they are actually quite interesting. They feature quite low thermal resistance, use a glass lens (cover) and have quite reasonable output.

    I would like, if it is ok, to get a thread going about information for using these LED packages. (sort of like the similar K2 Information Thread) This would include questions / inputs about mechanical aspects, drivers, and optics / reflectors.

    In my particular case, I am mostly interested in the 10 watt part and how to manage the light (optics / reflectors), but feel free to post on the other versions if you wish.

    Just to kick things off, here is a link to their web site product list.

    http://ledengin.com/led_products.php
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Have you seen how much space is in between the dies? Talk about a doughnut. I don't think anyone sees why it would be better to have one of these instead of a MC-E or P7.

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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    I've had one of those LEDs.. nifty little thing.. I remember it ran extremely hot

    the new multicolor MC-E should work better

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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    Have you seen how much space is in between the dies? Talk about a doughnut. I don't think anyone sees why it would be better to have one of these instead of a MC-E or P7.
    That is an interesting point saabluster, and it might explain why there is so little posted about it. The aspects that I like about it
    - The extremely low thermal resistance - about 1/2 of many packages
    - Much tougher "lens"
    - Thermal isolation of the phos from the die

    I know that they have been playing with the lens optics to work on beam shaping, so maybe that helps with die spacing.

    Frankly, I also like the fact that the die are US made (Cree die I am pretty sure) and they are also packaged in the US (CA). I have been to the factory a few times - kind of neat. (no free samples though)

    csshih - I am just curious - what did you do for optics / reflector, thermal path and driver for this package ? Any pics / suggestions ?
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryN View Post

    In my particular case, I am mostly interested in the 10 watt part and how to manage the light (optics / reflectors), but feel free to post on the other versions if you wish.

    Just to kick things off, here is a link to their web site product list.

    http://ledengin.com/led_products.php
    the 10w and 15w version are powered@12v

    I want a sst-50 and sst-90 now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=224644
    custom flashlights:2 x MTE sf-15 SST-90@10amp,,romisen rc-g2 q5bin ez900chip aspherical and sku7882 @2.75 amp 18000 lux@1m, tiablo collimator with q5 ez900 chip @2.95 amp 72000 lux@1m. pc: e8400/gtx 285

  6. #6

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    I haven't yet used the 10 watt package, but I use the 15 watt UV and Dental blue ones pretty often at work.

    What's good:

    1. Packaging on the 15 watt unit is really nice (+/- leads mounted on a flexible ribbon).
    2. Thermal resistance to the base is really, really low, so just mounting these on a good heat sink seems to provide adequate cooling despite their generating a lot of heat

    What's frustrating:
    1. The UV ones have a 65 degree half angle or so spread. Not bad for a lot of applications, but very difficult to focus down if you want a tight beam. I've had some decent luck using some FCM series lenses from Fraen to concentrate the 15W light output down to a 8 degree cone.

    I've been trying to get some really high UV densities (I'm shooting for around 20-30 emitted UV watts focused down to a few mm^2), and these haven't been a bad starting point for my efforts.

    If anyone else is running something with at least 3 or 4 of the 15 W units, I'd be interested in knowing what drivers they are using (I'm using a really beefy bench supply at the moment)

    Here's my "Dental Blue" module:


  7. #7
    Flashaholic* saabluster's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryN View Post
    - The extremely low thermal resistance - about 1/2 of many packages
    - Much tougher "lens"
    - Thermal isolation of the phos from the die

    I know that they have been playing with the lens optics to work on beam shaping, so maybe that helps with die spacing.
    You are right that it does have a very low thermal resistance. But it doesn't really seem to be helping them. The MC-E has a glass lens also but is not saddled with a pasture in between the dies. And the thermal isolation of the phosphor is nice and good for fixed lighting but has no real benefit for portable lighting. The gap in the dies is a real big deal here. It is a deal breaker. And as moviles mentioned driving these would be difficult in most lights. There is a very good reason you do not see these in lights.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by moviles View Post
    the 10w and 15w version are powered@12v

    I want a sst-50 and sst-90 now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=224644
    Hi, this is an incomplete understanding of the packages and test conditions.

    The data sheet shows that each LED die is individually powered with its own pads. There are two star versions, one for driving them in parallel, one for driving them in series.

    The die binning for Vf is quite tight, and is tested both "per die" and "as a package in series. It is the "in series" Vf that is reported. The Vf of this is going to be in the same range of any other power LED package.

    One of the things I like is that they are really paying attention to Vf. Cree makes nice products, but one thing that always bothered me is that they kind of go to some bother to not spec Vf - kind of annoying to someone used to buying premium binned Lumileds products.

    I don't disagree that the SST packages are very interesting, and it is not my goal to cut down anyone's products, rather, I am just trying to gather experiences and technical info on the product in one place.

    It could well be that this is a great package for general lighting as you have noted. That would fit into the general nature of this forum, as we certainly have a general lighting category here. I don't use 5mm LEDs to power flashlights either, but that doesn't make them uninteresting for the right application.

    You might be interested to know that my initial impression of the Cree packages, especially their initial 1 die packages, was that they were better suited for general lighting than flashlights. My wife, who cares very little about flashlights, was watching me test them against a Lux III (several years ago). The Cree package produced a soft white light effect due to putting the phos on the inside of the dome, while the Lux III package was clearly a hard white effect - more like an uncoated light bulb. The strong blue ring effect, common at that time, did not show up until you used a reflector with it, making them nearly useless with reflector applications.

    At that time, Cree's package had not yet caught up with PL, so they have come a long way.

    Coming back to the optical aspects - has anyone actually tried putting a reflector or optic on this package?
    Last edited by HarryN; 06-09-2009 at 10:24 AM. Reason: spelling
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryN View Post
    csshih - I am just curious - what did you do for optics / reflector, thermal path and driver for this package ? Any pics / suggestions ?

    Sorry.. I played with it a while back before I found CPF.. :O

    I had it AA'd to a PC heatsink... and DD'd individual dies for short periods of time.. let's see if I can dig up a pic..


    eh..
    only a pic from my old sale thread of the emitter..


  10. #10

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    I own 5x of the 660nm 10W LedEngin LEDs. I originally bought 4 for use with a grow light but one suffered 'pad breakthrough' and shorted out.

    This is due to my error, I'm sure- I use a multi meter to test that none of the pads were grounded and I'm guessing I poked it hard enough to go through the resist into the aluminum base. Why it happened on one and not all 4 I don't know, but it did.

    The chips have a remarkably low c/w which allows a simple aluminum bar and heat sink to passively cool them. I have not hooked up a whisker/rice thermister to measure the temperature but use of an optical IR meter (insert reliability jokes here) states they do not exceed 130F after several hours of use in an open environment.

    Soldering them was difficult as you might expect for such a highly efficient thermal pad.

    They're running 2x2 with a 40W Xitanium driver- so not getting a full 1A each.

    My plants like them- home grown lettuce did quite nicely.

    I hope to purchase some Ledli optical reflectors at some point and rework the whole unit- but that'll be another day in another basement I hope.

    Jason

    -edit: Oh yeah, you can not buy replacement MCPB boards. I've tried and I did just find a note from LedEngin that they might have one to send me- there are specific boards because the contacts have to be soldered in place... not for the home user I'm told.
    Last edited by purduephotog; 06-09-2009 at 07:23 AM. Reason: additional note

  11. #11
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Hi Jason - Thanks for the post info.

    When you talk about the contacts - are you talking about the contacts on the LED emitter version or the board?

    I was planning to use solder paste to solder them on to a board. Did you use this method or something else?

    Thanks

    HarryN
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kaszeta View Post
    I haven't yet used the 10 watt package, but I use the 15 watt UV and Dental blue ones pretty often at work.

    If anyone else is running something with at least 3 or 4 of the 15 W units, I'd be interested in knowing what drivers they are using (I'm using a really beefy bench supply at the moment)
    Hi Kasteta - Thank you for posting that info here, and welcome to CPF.

    Since you are running up around 50 - 60 watts, I think you are in Xitanium driver territory. They come in various power levels, some wtih dimming. I know that leddynamics carries at least one model. They are made by advanced transformer.

    Good luck with your project and let us know you it works out.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryN View Post
    Hi Jason - Thanks for the post info.

    When you talk about the contacts - are you talking about the contacts on the LED emitter version or the board?

    I was planning to use solder paste to solder them on to a board. Did you use this method or something else?

    Thanks

    HarryN
    I ordered MPCB serially connected devices. So I broke through the solder pads on the aluminum board. I have not removed the LED /dies from that one yet.

  14. #14

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kaszeta View Post
    I haven't yet used the 10 watt package, but I use the 15 watt UV and Dental blue ones pretty often at work.

    What's good:

    1. Packaging on the 15 watt unit is really nice (+/- leads mounted on a flexible ribbon).
    2. Thermal resistance to the base is really, really low, so just mounting these on a good heat sink seems to provide adequate cooling despite their generating a lot of heat

    What's frustrating:
    1. The UV ones have a 65 degree half angle or so spread. Not bad for a lot of applications, but very difficult to focus down if you want a tight beam. I've had some decent luck using some FCM series lenses from Fraen to concentrate the 15W light output down to a 8 degree cone.

    I've been trying to get some really high UV densities (I'm shooting for around 20-30 emitted UV watts focused down to a few mm^2), and these haven't been a bad starting point for my efforts.

    If anyone else is running something with at least 3 or 4 of the 15 W units, I'd be interested in knowing what drivers they are using (I'm using a really beefy bench supply at the moment)
    I'm interested by LZ4-00xx15 series but i don't know how the plug that (i have no knowledge in electronic). Ideally i want to plug a group of 3 and a group 6 on each powersupply, but if it more simple, i will be happy to connect them individually.

    I want to use these 15w leds at their max power 1500mA, somebody tell me that i need driver for that and he suggest to use KONLUX DC 1500mA.
    What i understand is i need one per Led and i have to find a powersupply with enough power to connect driver and cpu cooler.

    If somebody can help me to open the Doors, because i need to Light my fire. ;-)

  15. #15
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FernanDEL View Post
    I'm interested by LZ4-00xx15 series but i don't know how the plug that (i have no knowledge in electronic). Ideally i want to plug a group of 3 and a group 6 on each powersupply, but if it more simple, i will be happy to connect them individually.

    I want to use these 15w leds at their max power 1500mA, somebody tell me that i need driver for that and he suggest to use KONLUX DC 1500mA.
    What i understand is i need one per Led and i have to find a powersupply with enough power to connect driver and cpu cooler.

    If somebody can help me to open the Doors, because i need to Light my fire. ;-)

    Hi FernanDEL - nice project.

    With those kind of power needs, I am assuming that you are plugging it into a wall socket? There are AC drivers out there, Xitanium type. I think LEDSupply sells them, or at least can refer you to someone that does.

    It might be possible to run several fully in series, but I think the Xitaniums max is around 25 - 30 volts Vf, so that is perhaps 8 junctions at full power.

    Take care,

    Harry
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  16. #16

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryN View Post
    Hi FernanDEL - nice project.

    With those kind of power needs, I am assuming that you are plugging it into a wall socket? There are AC drivers out there, Xitanium type. I think LEDSupply sells them, or at least can refer you to someone that does.

    It might be possible to run several fully in series, but I think the Xitaniums max is around 25 - 30 volts Vf, so that is perhaps 8 junctions at full power.

    Take care,

    Harry
    I presume i need this one for my 1500mA:

    40-Watt Xitanium LED Driver Features:
    Output Current: 1750mA
    Input Voltage: 120VAC 50-60Hz
    OutPut Voltage: 24VDC
    Output Power: 40W
    No Lead
    UL Class 2 - Outdoor Rated

    It's 60$
    Ok i can easyly plug 6 led, is it enough power for 6 CPU coolers too ? What i understand is i have to use resistance to balance power right ?

    Thanks
    Last edited by FernanDEL; 09-11-2009 at 05:19 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    What i understand now it's i'm no need power to cool the leds :

    ECC-00499-01-GP (13.5W)

    Dimension 35f x 200 mm
    Heat sink Al. base + Heat pipe
    Finish Painting Color
    LED type LZ4-x0xx15
    Thermal resistance* RT=3.1°C/W


    Now i have to find how to balance power of the 40-Watt Xitanium LED Driver for having the best luminous performance without stressing the leds.

    I will use 4 x LZ4-00R215 deep red (no spec) and 2 x LZ4-00B215 blue. What i don't understand in the specs is the bin code - Is it related to part revision, more recent are more performant ?

    Any help are welcome ;-)

  18. #18

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    What i understand about electricity now is when i plug serial i add volt and when i plug parallel i add amp. For plugin 6 ledengin 15watts i have 4 possibilities (6 serial, 6 paralllel, 3 par. x 2 serial) and 2 par. x 3 serial). The problem is wattage, How many watts is needed for each solution.

    Somebody know ?

    PS: Ledengin Bin code is related to production batch if you are lucky you can get a good batch, or you can wait for a production reach your specificity.
    Last edited by FernanDEL; 09-15-2009 at 07:18 AM.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* bshanahan14rulz's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Watts is Current times Voltage (P=I*V)

    if an individual LED pulls 700mA (0.7A) at 3.6V, it uses 2.52W (3.6*0.7=2.52)

    if 3 of these LEDs are in series, their voltages add up (as you already know) So:
    3.6+3.6+3.6=10.8V total voltage "dropped" by the string.
    current flows through the whole string, the whole string sees 0.7A.
    Now, crunch the numbers to get 7.56W used by this string of 3.

    if 3 of these same LEDs are paralleled, their current adds up. So:
    Each loop of the circuit goes from battery, through one LED, and back to battery. Since it only goes through one LED, the voltage dropped is 3.6V.
    Current adds up when it has to split like that, so 0.7+0.7+0.7 = 2.1A.
    Crunching the numbers gets you 7.56W used by these 3 LEDs in parallel.

    You will notice, using the same components but arranging them differently will yield the same amount of power. In fact, if you multiply the 2.52 we got in the first example by 3, we get 7.56 since there are 3 LEDs instead of just one!

    test is next week you better study!

  20. #20

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bshanahan14rulz View Post

    test is next week you better study!
    Thanks prof, but the initial question is how to plug 6 ledengin 15w at 1500mA and 15v.

    I have already said that i have no knowledge in electricity nor electronic, but by the way it looks like that i will reach the solution by myself. ;-)

    At this time, i dunno if it work but i find a power supply near what i want.

    With a PowerPartners Model Number PPLC100S278SS :
    Current (1) : 2780 mA
    Input Voltage : 90 ~ 264 Vac
    Max. Output Voltage : 36 Vdc
    Max. Output Power : 100 W
    Typical Efficiency (2) : 91%
    Power Factor
    120Vac : 0.99
    220Vac : 0.96
    ----

    I think i can plug 2 parallel of 3 series, i'm near 1500 mA per Led and maybe it's possible to ajust the voltage excedent, right ?

  21. #21

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    I make a mistake 2 parallel of 3 series need (90w 3A 45v)

    I have find a Mepos Led driver :
    Part Number : ILPA150VU-S052ST
    Output Voltage : 52VDC
    Max. Output Current : 3.00A
    Efficiency (220VAC, Full Load) : 93%
    Over Voltage Protection - Min / Typ / Max : 56V / 60V / 63V
    Max. Output Power : 150W

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* bshanahan14rulz's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FernanDEL View Post
    the initial question is how to plug 6 ledengin 15w at 1500mA and 15v
    assuming you want white. I guess these are in series, as Vf is pretty high.

    So, lets say you have the first driver option to work with, and you need to power a total of 9 units? Am I reading you right so far?

    Normally with high-power LEDs, it's a good idea not to have LEDs or strings of LEDs paralleled. This is because as they heat up, they draw more current. If one string heats up more than the other that is parallel with it, it draws more current. More current means more heat. More heat means more current. This means the other string starts getting less and less current. Eventually the hotter string will fry from overheating/overdriving.

    The bad news: this makes the number of LEDs you can safely drive per driver smaller.

    The good news: it's easier to calculate how many LEDs per driver, as they are all to be in series!

    Now, if you DO want to try to put two strings paralleled, you will need to make sure that the two strings have the same Vf, same heatsinking. Plus, you will want something to limit current from shifting from one string to the other too much. Usually resistors are used for this, but with the amount of current going through these, your resistor would end up being huge. I'm not really sure of a good way to do this, so perhaps someone else will chime in.

    As for running them in one series string, if you ran all 9 LEDs at 1500mA, you would need a driver capable of outputting 135V (9*15V) at 1.5A.
    Alternatively, you could get 2 drivers and split them up to lower the total Vf needed.

  23. #23

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    I will pay for simplicity i will go with eldoLED driver, it was my initial decision. ;-)

  24. #24

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Just got 6 (10 watt) deep red (661 nm) and 6 (5 watt) warm whites

    I have on order a meanwell eln-30-24 (1.25 amp, 24 volt) for the warm whites

    also on order is a meanwell clg-60-24 (2.5 amp, 24 volt) plan on running

    3 parallel strings of 2 in series. I have seen the precautions of doing so but

    there seems not to be a lot choices, that I have found so far, of high volt

    low amp drivers. Will this work? Are there better options? Not a great level

    of experience but I am learning so please make answers on the simple side.

    I got these leds for of all things to grow algae which in turn filters my fish

    tank. I got the warm white leds because they seemed unusual as far as the

    spectrum contain some fairly low blues and some high reds that correspond

    nicely with the chlorophyll a absorption spectra. Can anyone show me a link

    for how to use a multimeter to check how I should maybe pair them to get

    a similar current running through each string? Do you test when there on or

    off or both. Please be basic I am new to this especially the use of a

    multimeter. Are there better driver choices? Any help would be appreciated.

    I seem to be able to find a lot more info about the low watt leds. I am

    concerned I might do something wrong and blow up a $30 deep red led or

    worse all 6.

  25. #25

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inkidu View Post
    Just got 6 (10 watt) deep red (661 nm) and 6 (5 watt) warm whites

    I have on order a meanwell eln-30-24 (1.25 amp, 24 volt) for the warm whites

    also on order is a meanwell clg-60-24 (2.5 amp, 24 volt) plan on running

    3 parallel strings of 2 in series. I have seen the precautions of doing so but

    there seems not to be a lot choices, that I have found so far, of high volt

    low amp drivers. Will this work? Are there better options? Not a great level

    of experience but I am learning so please make answers on the simple side.

    I got these leds for of all things to grow algae which in turn filters my fish

    tank. I got the warm white leds because they seemed unusual as far as the

    spectrum contain some fairly low blues and some high reds that correspond

    nicely with the chlorophyll a absorption spectra. Can anyone show me a link

    for how to use a multimeter to check how I should maybe pair them to get

    a similar current running through each string? Do you test when there on or

    off or both. Please be basic I am new to this especially the use of a

    multimeter. Are there better driver choices? Any help would be appreciated.

    I seem to be able to find a lot more info about the low watt leds. I am

    concerned I might do something wrong and blow up a $30 deep red led or

    worse all 6.

    All I can tell you is I've fried so many ledengin LEDs that I won't run them in parallel anymore.

    Magtech makes a couple of higher voltage drivers- the highest I saw is a 48V unit, so that could run 4 dies in series- Ithink they make one at 1A.

    I purchased a 48v 1.3A driver and plan to run 14 dies in series, each at 1.3A. Solves alot of problems with the xitanium drivers AND I don't have to get the stupid wires in those little pathetic plugs.

  26. #26

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Thanks for the reply.

    Points well taken unfortunately I already ordered the CLG-60-24. So needless

    to say I would like to make it work. Would a 1 ohm or possible a 2 ohm give

    enough protection from burning them up? Is that what a resistor would do

    i.e. provide insurance/balance the load? recap 6(10watt deep red)

    typ. 10.8 fVat 833 mA 3p2s

    I don't want to lose efficiency they (meanwell) mention about a Driver IC in the catalog as

    the most efficient, costly, and difficult to hook up. "PWM constant current source

    will regulate forward current to achieve even current at each branch" (Driver IC)

    It looks like its being used along with the clg-60-24 driver.

    What link could I use to find out what and how to use a Driver IC?

    Might be beyond someone with little experience. me

    But I would like to try.


    Thanks for any help.
    Last edited by Inkidu; 02-21-2010 at 08:36 AM.

  27. #27

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    If anyone is interested the (6) 10 watt deep reds from LEDENGIN

    http://www.ledengin.com/products/10wLZ/LZ4-00R210.pdf

    are working 2s3p with the meanwell CLG-60-24 w/o resistors for 5 hours straight

    now. Am I over any possibility of failure?

    Thanks for any help.

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* bshanahan14rulz's Avatar
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    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    TI has a LED design handbook pdf somewhere with lists of specially designed driver chips. IIRC, some were complicated as stink, but some were "hook up to power, hook up LED, add resistor, voila!"

    Never tried getting samples before, though...

  29. #29

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    We need a 8 to 10 watt heat sink for the LedEngin LZ4 series leds. Anyone know of a good source for these? Mouser has a few but they are all either obsolete or soon to be obsolete.

  30. #30

    Default Re: LEDEngin - 10 watt / 15 watt Information thread

    Walk into any PC store. If you need something more specific, you need to tell us.

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