Microfire L2000R

David_G · Jul 9, 2009

Hello there,

I am David from Microfire in Germany. We are just designing a new LED searchlight the name is Microfire L2000R. You will find more information about that light here:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=194136

Like I said in my last post there I had an idea about that light and that is the point I would like to have your feedback.

At the moment the L2000R has two levels of output and a Strobe mode the UI is: high / low / high / strobe. High and strobe with 2000 Lumens , low with 300 Lumens. As we are using 19 Cree Q5 and because of Glenn7s post we thought about the following changes :

1.)The light has two levels of output and strobe. the high mode with 4000 lumens which will dimm to the 2000 lumens mode after for example 15 minutes.the problem I see here is - how can the user get the turbomode back when the temperature got down again
2.)The light has three levels of output: 4000 Lumens/ 2000 Lumens / 300 Lumens. The Turbomode can be switched on seperatly and we will let know the customers that they can use this only for example 10 or 15 minutes.
To prevent the light from overheating in the second way we -could- add a temperature control

Please post what you think about the change and if you would like the first or second way more. Maybe you have a totaly different idea...

Thanks

David

old4570 · Jul 9, 2009

Im sorry - but have nothing nice to say about strobe .

Perhaps SOS or beacon mode ... Or just High Medium Low

Glenn7 · Jul 9, 2009

My honest opinion is - and if it were to count - but since you mentioned me - is wiseled dot com just bought out their new tactical that has 2000 lumens that come from 7 x P4 (a special bin that they can get) - it has thermal protection that cuts in after 20-30 minutes and steps down to 70% but you can bump it up anytime to 100% - also it can go down to 100 meters as a dive light - they cost $688 USD + $30 shipping - they are offering a 30% discount for CPF'ers so you could have it for $440'ish - not bad IMO (BTW I do have a wiseled tactical 1500)

BUT WOW!!!!!!!! now that you would offer 4000 lumens (even if only for the first 15 minutes) that would make me drop every thing and buy one in all honesty :faint:

:twothumbs :grin2:

This is now becoming a reality that LED's can beat HID's

WHERE IS THE SIGN UP LIST :paypal:

.

MrGman · Jul 9, 2009

Glenn7 said:
My honest opinion is - and if it were to count - but since you mentioned me - is wiseled dot com just bought out their new tactical that has 2000 lumens that come from 7 x P4 (a special bin that they can get) - it has thermal protection that cuts in after 20-30 minutes and steps down to 70% but you can bump it up anytime to 100% - also it can go down to 100 meters as a dive light - they cost $688 USD + $30 shipping - they are offering a 30% discount for CPF'ers so you could have it for $440'ish - not bad IMO (BTW I do have a wiseled tactical 1500)

BUT WOW!!!!!!!! now that you would offer 4000 lumens (even if only for the first 15 minutes) that would make me drop every thing and buy one in all honesty :twothumbs
This is now becoming a reality that LED's can beat HID's

WHERE IS THE SIGN UP LIST

.

Putting 19 LEDs in parallel in regard to their light output to make 2000 lumens or 4K lumens peak is not "beating" an HID by any stretch of the imagination. Basically they are putting 19 lights against one.

I think this type of light is ridiculous. The whole concept of simply stringing more and more LEDs together in one head to get the lumens output up is neither technically advanced or impressive. They all have little tiny reflectors. I have seen Units with 5 R2's making over 1200 lumens that was reasonable. I have seen triple P7 units making 1700 lumens at turn on and held over 1500 lumens that were reasonable.

A quad set up of P7's with deep dish reflectors along the lines of that in the Neofab Legion II that will give some decent throw with 3 or 4 modes and NO STUPID Strobe (what does strobe have to do with "search" mode of a search light anyway), now that might be interesting and useful.

Otherwise you really aren't doing anything to approach the output of a good deep dish HID, and I am not a fan of HID's.

And spending $750 dollars on a light that you have to worry about getting too hot and possibly ruining the LEDs, why???? Isn't there a couple of HIDs that run for less than $200 that make 3200 lumens that any one can buy already. Have you done some serious market research? This will be nothing more than a novelty item that just a handful of people would buy just to show off and nothing more.

(bigchelis just say no). that's my opinion, MrGman.

ROGUE · Jul 9, 2009

old4570 said:
Im sorry - but have nothing nice to say about strobe .

You've obviously never had the pleasure of having a 120kg maniac off his face on ice running towards you.... :duh2:

Trust me, strobe is your friend.

Juggernaut · Jul 9, 2009

L2000R = $750 at 4,000 lumens
vs.
Kong 12 Electrolumens = $1,500 at 8,400 lumens

Nicely priced, from your beam shoots it looks to have a decent beam "more throw orientated compared to the Kong 12". No these lights won't fill in the roll for those needing high power HIDs:shakehead, but they do fill a void left in the market for those who need unparallel instant on /off power at medium range:thumbsup:.

As for me I'll keep blasting down aliens with my cheap hot wire death rays, but that's just me

.

Oh and one last thing, I really like how it looks, kind of like a freakish overkill M6:devil::twothumbs! In fact I think this is my new favorite looking flashlight "this might be a bad thing because I have a different idea of what's cool looking compared to most people

".

Glenn7 · Jul 9, 2009

MrGman said:
Putting 19 LEDs in parallel in regard to their light output to make 2000 lumens or 4K lumens peak is not "beating" an HID by any stretch of the imagination. Basically they are putting 19 lights against one.

I think this type of light is ridiculous. The whole concept of simply stringing more and more LEDs together in one head to get the lumens output up is neither technically advanced or impressive. They all have little tiny reflectors. I have seen Units with 5 R2's making over 1200 lumens that was reasonable. I have seen triple P7 units making 1700 lumens at turn on and held over 1500 lumens that were reasonable.

A quad set up of P7's with deep dish reflectors along the lines of that in the Neofab Legion II that will give some decent throw with 3 or 4 modes and NO STUPID Strobe (what does strobe have to do with "search" mode of a search light anyway), now that might be interesting and useful.

Otherwise you really aren't doing anything to approach the output of a good deep dish HID, and I am not a fan of HID's.

And spending $750 dollars on a light that you have to worry about getting too hot and possibly ruining the LEDs, why???? Isn't there a couple of HIDs that run for less than $200 that make 3200 lumens that any one can buy already. Have you done some serious market research? This will be nothing more than a novelty item that just a handful of people would buy just to show off and nothing more.

(bigchelis just say no). that's my opinion, MrGman.

I don't think what I say will change your mind - and you "are" entitled to your opinion as I am of mine - I have a DEFT (and I know you have no respect for aspherics - but thats again only your opinion) and it has only an R2 cree putting out 300+ lumens - but it out shines a 24W HID https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/225720&page=2 go to post number 40 - and yes the HID has more over all light (and that would show a sphere) but where it counts which is in the spot (and not debating shape of spot or spill) the DEFT wins - I am sure you have to agree - so you could say a DEFT "can" beat a 10,15,20,24W HID but not a 24+ HID.
You can measure over all output in a sphere - but in real world practice it is different - just like if I show you 400HP on a dyno on one screen and 100HP on another - then you would say yep that 400HP is the most powerful of the two - but then I show you that the 400HP was a truck and the 100HP was a car - now which one will win in a race - not just what can pull the most.

with a light I think you need power but I do think it is more to do with how the beam is shaped as well.
You said "I have seen Units with 5 R2's making over 1200 lumens that was reasonable" so why cant 19 leds be even more reasonable than 5 ??
Also I wouldnt like a quad set up like the neofab because I wouldnt like 4x the donut holes

- I have a EagleTac MX2 and I bet that would out throw the L2 no problems - and even though its reflectors are bigger than the reflectors in the L2000R - I think the shear grunt of all the 19 little reflectors will give most HID's 24W and under a real run for their money - and single led's are more efficient than multi die's - BTW did you see the beam shots of the L2000R in the first thread? because if you did and if they are the real deal then it has a good spot for throw and good spill to. And as for size being 6.3' and 270 pounds with big hands - a big light like the L2000R would not bother me at all - yes I could get an HID but I don't really like them probably for the same reasons you don't.

You also said "And spending $750 dollars on a light that you have to worry about getting too hot and possibly ruining the LEDs, why????" - well it will have thermal protection and because I can if "I" like it - I don't know how many lights you have but I have culled mine down to about 10 of what I think is some of the best/brightest lights from CPF and weeding out the mediocre ones - yes they can cost more for each - but I have only spent the same as someone people do with 50+ lights but not having shelf (dead money) queens - that are old technology.

Beam shots have way more credence for me than any sphere measurements - I grab a light and go outside and use it for what it was made for thats the real usefulness of a light IMO because I am not a flashlight spotter :wave:

Juggernaut · Jul 9, 2009

Glenn7 said:
but then I show you that the 400HP was in a truck and the 100HP was in a car - now which one will win in a race - not just what can pull the most.

My money is on the S10, I don't even think the Mark IV can move with only 100 hp :crackup:

.

Just kidding

.

Glenn7 · Jul 10, 2009

ok ok you got me :ohgeez:

- I was meaning semitrailer - that thing you call a truck - we call a ute :kiss:

David_G · Jul 10, 2009

Thanks for your honest feedback. I am happy for any meaning that helps us building a good light.

I also got several eMails with suggestions and I think we are getting closer
There are many people like old4570 that do not want a strobe mode. so here comes the idea of splitting the UI:

Switch one for normale Mode: 300 lumens / 2000 lumens
Switch two for 4000 lumens turbo mode and Strobe

That will make the light easy to use, no clicking and strobing until you are in the right mode and a light burst when ever you need it by just pressing the button.

A heat control will switch turbo mode to 2000 lumens to prevent the
LEDs from damage. At the moment we are just thinking about the best UI, any comments - just let me know

Have a good weekend

David

Glenn7 · Jul 10, 2009

I would prefer the 1st button to be just on/off - click on at 300 lumen's 2nd click off - thats all - having no confusion.
The 2nd button can cycle between 2000 and 4000 lumen's after the 1st button is activated - but if the 1st button is not pushed first you can just hit the 2nd button to make it come on at 4000 lumen's - or hold down the 2nd button from off down for say 1.5 seconds then it would strobe while you hold your finger on the button release and it stays on - then hit the 1st button to turn off.
Does this make sense??

.

Juggernaut · Jul 10, 2009

I'm not a super fan of strobing myself, but at 4,000 lumens this must be the highest power strobe flashlight in the world :faint:

, it's got to do something:thinking::duck:?

David_G · Jul 20, 2009

Thanks for your feedback here on the CPF and your emails. We are working on the Upgrade for the L2000R and you will get the information about the changes in the manufactures corner when we finished this project

David

Patriot · Jul 20, 2009

Glenn7 said:
I don't think what I say will change your mind - and you "are" entitled to your opinion as I am of mine - I have a DEFT (and I know you have no respect for aspherics - but thats again only your opinion) and it has only an R2 cree putting out 300+ lumens - but it out shines a 24W HID https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/225720&page=2 go to post number 40 - and yes the HID has more over all light (and that would show a sphere) but where it counts which is in the spot (and not debating shape of spot or spill) the DEFT wins - I am sure you have to agree - so you could say a DEFT "can" beat a 10,15,20,24W HID but not a 24+ HID.
You can measure over all output in a sphere - but in real world practice it is different -

Hey Glenn, it's true that the DEFT does well and out threw my 24W AE light, that doesn't mean it's the more usable or practical option. If I told you to go search for a person in the woods with each of those lights, I don't have to tell you which would be better. The DEFT is not a searchlight and there's no replacement for lumens. I'm not sure how the aspheric discussion got initiated since from what I can see, the L2000R uses 19 reflectors. I have no question that the L2000R would out throw a 24W HID also, but look at what is sacrificed in order to accomplish that. The sheer size of the light is massive compared to 25W Xenide or 35W K3500R. When a sphere measures output, it's normally provides a good indication of what a light will do in the real world. You're not going to have and 4/1 odditties as you described. When throw is increased using the same lumens you potentially decrease performance elsewhere depending on what your trying to accomplish with the beam.

with a light I think you need power but I do think it is more to do with how the beam is shaped as well.
You said "I have seen Units with 5 R2's making over 1200 lumens that was reasonable" so why cant 19 leds be even more reasonable than 5 ??
Also I wouldnt like a quad set up like the neofab because I wouldnt like 4x the donut holes - I have a EagleTac MX2 and I bet that would out throw the L2 no problems

I think we all take beamshape into consideration but for the most part all reflectored LED lights all produce beams that fall within an expected degree of angle. I mean, we just don't see 30 degree beams or 3 degree beams from LED's using reflectors. From that regard the playing field is pretty even. Manufacturers typically market their lights as throw, med/flood or flood and we're all fairly used to seeing how the light is distributed in those cases. By Gman making the point of 5 LED's producing substantially more light by percentage, he's demonstrating that one is far more efficient at producing lumens per emitter. This in turn has a large bearing on the size, weight, and power that's required to produce the same performance. You mentioned the WiseLED which is a good example of high performance in a reasonalbe size. Regarding multiple quad die lights, they do not produce multiple, visible donut holes as suggested, they instead of the effect of blending and cancelling out the donut effect. Regarding the Neofab, All of the tests I performed were done with the OP reflector, if the SMO reflector was used, I don't think the M2X would beat it, that's just my estimation.

BTW did you see the beam shots of the L2000R in the first thread? because if you did and if they are the real deal then it has a good spot for throw and good spill to. And as for size being 6.3' and 270 pounds with big hands - a big light like the L2000R would not bother me at all - yes I could get an HID but I don't really like them probably for the same reasons you don't.

That's a trade off that you're willing to make but I have a suspicion that most will not be willing to make. Battery Junction's new L50 will outperform this light with ease, both in total lumen output and throw. I uses a top carry handle which is more ergonomic for the majority of medium and large sized lights.

Beam shots have way more credence for me than any sphere measurements - I grab a light and go outside and use it for what it was made for thats the real usefulness of a light IMO because I am not a flashlight spotter :wave:

Spheres only determine one thing, total lumen output. Most of us don't purchase a light by this feature alone and instead factor in many things, including size, weight, efficiency, usability, etc. If all other factors are equal or at least similar, we tend to gravitate toward the light with more output. Again, most reflectored LED lights are going to perform similarly in the beamshape they provide so the only big factor left is lumen output. In the example of the L2000R, I think overall output is its strong point but it falls behind in the other forementioned areas. If you take this concept to the extreme you have to ask yourself other questions like, would you still endorse/except a product that was 5000 lumens but used 30 LED's? I for one would not. Give me 7 high performing R2s or 3 high performing P7's or MCEs and make the package as small as possible. If I need more lumens beyond that I'll move up to the more appropriate source which is HID. When the surface brightness of LED's double, then I'll consider ditching HID but until then there's no replacement for them. :thumbsup:

Patriot · Jul 20, 2009

DavidG, of the two choices that you mention, option #2 would be better. Yes, the light should be at least 4000 lumens on turbo considering its size. In the current 2000 lumen version you're getting 105 lumens per emitter which is very poor performance by today's standards and I can't imagine MF not being aware of this fact. I'm not sure why MF didn't double the output per emitter and cut the number of LED's in half. I'm guessing this was done due to heat issues but if that's the case, Microfire needs to improve there heat-sinking with a large copper or aluminum mass, not add more LED's which only increase size and weight. This is a "poor-man's" patch to doing it the right way but in the end it's not a "poor-man's" light at $750, due primarily to all the extra componentry. Reduce the number of components and increase efficiency.

Wolf-eyes seems to have a good handle on LED technology, so there's no reason that MF shouldn't.

polkiuj · Jul 20, 2009

ROGUE said:
You've obviously never had the pleasure of having a 120kg maniac off his face on ice running towards you.... :duh2:

Trust me, strobe is your friend.

Hey there! We've recently met up and tested the effects of lights on attackers. Of course, this is still considered "controlled" situations but anyway...

I found that a 8 - 10k lux (this is probably too much anyway) blast on the eyes of an attacker with an LED light will instantly toast his eyes for a few seconds. It is enough time for me to sidestep, move to his back and smash his head with my light.

In another test, I found that even a "mere" Fenix LD10 on turbo will toast vision enough to get you away or into an advantage.

Also, strobe will kill my own vision and irritate the heck outta me. So a full powered blast is as effective or more effective as a strobe, rendering the strobe kinda useless.

That's what I think.

As for the 19 LED monster, I've seen, carried and used the Kong-12 (a lil bit) and it's not really fun. Its really heavy and big. But the flood is really god so it might have it's uses. I don't see the need for a throw oriented big light like that since HIDs do exist.

That's my views. =)

Glenn7 · Jul 20, 2009

Patriot said:
Hey Glenn, it's true that the DEFT does well and out threw my 24W AE light, that doesn't mean it's the more usable or practical option. If I told you to go search for a person in the woods with each of those lights, I don't have to tell you which would be better. The DEFT is not a searchlight and there's no replacement for lumens. I'm not sure how the aspheric discussion got initiated since from what I can see, the L2000R uses 19 reflectors. I have no question that the L2000R would out throw a 24W HID also, but look at what is sacrificed in order to accomplish that. The sheer size of the light is massive compared to 25W Xenide or 35W K3500R. When a sphere measures output, it's normally provides a good indication of what a light will do in the real world. You're not going to have and 4/1 odditties as you described. When throw is increased using the same lumens you potentially decrease performance elsewhere depending on what your trying to accomplish with the beam.

I think we all take beamshape into consideration but for the most part all reflectored LED lights all produce beams that fall within an expected degree of angle. I mean, we just don't see 30 degree beams or 3 degree beams from LED's using reflectors. From that regard the playing field is pretty even. Manufacturers typically market their lights as throw, med/flood or flood and we're all fairly used to seeing how the light is distributed in those cases. By Gman making the point of 5 LED's producing substantially more light by percentage, he's demonstrating that one is far more efficient at producing lumens per emitter. This in turn has a large bearing on the size, weight, and power that's required to produce the same performance. You mentioned the WiseLED which is a good example of high performance in a reasonalbe size. Regarding multiple quad die lights, they do not produce multiple, visible donut holes as suggested, they instead of the effect of blending and cancelling out the donut effect. Regarding the Neofab, All of the tests I performed were done with the OP reflector, if the SMO reflector was used, I don't think the M2X would beat it, that's just my estimation.

That's a trade off that you're willing to make but I have a suspicion that most will not be willing to make. Battery Junction's new L50 will outperform this light with ease, both in total lumen output and throw. I uses a top carry handle which is more ergonomic for the majority of medium and large sized lights.

Spheres only determine one thing, total lumen output. Most of us don't purchase a light by this feature alone and instead factor in many things, including size, weight, efficiency, usability, etc. If all other factors are equal or at least similar, we tend to gravitate toward the light with more output. Again, most reflectored LED lights are going to perform similarly in the beamshape they provide so the only big factor left is lumen output. In the example of the L2000R, I think overall output is its strong point but it falls behind in the other forementioned areas. If you take this concept to the extreme you have to ask yourself other questions like, would you still endorse/except a product that was 5000 lumens but used 30 LED's? I for one would not. Give me 7 high performing R2s or 3 high performing P7's or MCEs and make the package as small as possible. If I need more lumens beyond that I'll move up to the more appropriate source which is HID. When the surface brightness of LED's double, then I'll consider ditching HID but until then there's no replacement for them. :thumbsup:

Hey Patriot - I do appreciate your educated input to this discussion :thumbsup:
The DEFT is no good for anything under 50 meters because it is like using a laser (very confusing to the eye) and no it would be no good searching in bush land up close - but in an open field for shooting or over water for spot lighting/searching is where it excels.

Mrgman said a light like this is ridiculous - its ridiculous to him - but he's not making it nor does he have to buy it - there are more diplomatic ways of saying "its just not for me" and a comment like that IMO is not constructive - it instantly shoots down people who might like actually like it - we could say what we think possible issues could be - then the manufactuerer might listen and change them - as has been in this case - and anyway I voiced the same kind of thing anyway in the first thread about 19 led's so I was agreeing with MrGman http://www.youtube.com/user/ArchNicholas :wave: that 19 led's are probably too many for size & weight when they could have less and drive them harder and have bigger deeper reflectors - but they are still in the process of deciding on switching/drive and led/reflector design. But its nice to see they are at least letting CPF people have some input and not just saying here is the light buy it or not.

These new Phatlight led's - the SST-90 can put out up to 2200 lumen's - which double the the surface brightness of what the current led's are offering - which might just make you ditch your HID (only joking) - but we will see

- I have one coming that I am going to put in a P7 LongThrow that has a 3" reflector - oh and BTW the LongThrow has a D bin P7 direct drive with 3x C NMiH and even with a fresh charge the M2X equals it or even beats it by a tiny bit - so thats how I know the M2X would beat the L2 (well IMO anyway)

Well back on topic as we should be - this light has IMO good potential and pending lumen output and user interface - I would be willing to try one out as I love to be a pioneer in these things :thumbsup: lovecpf

Patriot · Jul 21, 2009

Glenn7 said:
These new Phatlight led's - the SST-90 can put out up to 2200 lumen's - which double the the surface brightness of what the current led's are offering - which might just make you ditch your HID (only joking) - but we will see - I have one coming that I am going to put in a P7 LongThrow that has a 3" reflector - oh and BTW the LongThrow has a D bin P7 direct drive with 3x C NMiH and even with a fresh charge the M2X equals it or even beats it by a tiny bit - so thats how I know the M2X would beat the L2 (well IMO anyway)

You could be right about the SST-90 and I havn't been taking its potential lightly. If they can be cooled properly a tri-led set-up, with reasonably sized reflectors could possibly match some of the best HID's. On the downside, you're talking about 27A to achieve that performance. We'll see.

EDIT: Given the size of the die, it's unlikely that even the sst-90 will match the HID's throw, so I was referring to lumen output. Also, it's not double the surface brightness of a current R2, in fact it appears to be lower per surface area. To achieve HID throw with a reflectors you'd have to cram 600+ lumen performance into something the size of a XRE.

snailmeat · Sep 14, 2009

Anyone bought or reviewed this light? I am curious to see how it stacks up againsts a tri or quad P7.

Microfire L2000R

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