Surefire PKEF "experimental lights" not warrantied by Surefire?

Yup... you read the title right. I have been in contact with Surefire Customer Service over the last week regarding possible warranty issues with my PKEF B5K and possible purchase of a three-stage clickie for it.

I was told today as well as last week by a Surefire CS rep that because it is an "experimental flashlight", there is no expressed warranty on it or any experimental Surefire lights.

So, even though my PKEF B5K is made by Surefire, has the "Surefire" logo and info on it, and cost me $370.00 total to purchase, Surefire will not warranty it or any part of it. They don't even carry the tail-caps or other parts for it as part of their stock/inventory. "The parts were made for the experimental runs, and that's it." as he put it.

If this is the case, I guess I'd better take really good care of my PKEF and not buy any more of Surefire's experimental PKEF lights. "If it breaks, oh well..."

Is this right or wrong? Does anyone know?

I would have to say that seems cold but totally fair. After all it is an experimental "vehicle" and was created to push the limits and sometimes they might have pushed it a wee bit too far. I am sure if you bought an experimental car from say mercedes benz the same disclaimer would be in the fine print somewhere but normally they make it a closed end lease so you cannot "keep" it but must return it so they can do a vehicular autopsy and see where they did good and where they need to keep working. I would say your statement to take care of your current PKEF and think long and hard before "buying" another experimental piece is a good plan.

Could have saved you a whole heap of phone conversations. I went thru the exact same thing with mine. I actually need the clickie for my light to work properly.

I'm certain that when the PKEF's were offered for sale to people interested in owning a piece of one of SureFire's experimental R&D projects it was known and stated that these experimental flashlights were not subject to any warranty or guarantee.
If SureFire no longer have the components to repair them then they can't.

PK put his name to the Experimental Flashlights left-over from the DARPA R&D project. PKEF bezels were put on whatever bodies they had kicking about and they used up the last of the proto-type two-stage clickie TailCaps. They were no offered to dealers as normal products - I believe it was a pretty select bunch of interested dealers who were able to order them for their customers.

Note there is no such thing as a three-stage PKEF TailCap clickie or otherwise. The "third stage" is a anomaly not a designed or intended feature.

These Experimental Flashlights were not products - they were proto-types.

I have plenty of SureFire proto-types - if they break by accident or intent then that's it. I guess one has a very different attitude to these rare and irreplaceable flashlights if one makes a purchasing investment rather than is sent them for field-testing & evaluation.

Al

Al, I don't understand. Why does Surefire make these excellent "experimental models" and not make them a part of their lineup with full warranty so many more of us can buy them and enjoy them?

Some of the most excellent Surefire products will never be seen much less used by anyone except a select few such as yourself and some other fortunate people here.

I just don't get it...:sigh:

Good to know, I'll never buy one here or anywhere else

Were any of the variations of the A2T ever sold by dealers as a PKEF?

socom1970 said:

Why does Surefire make these excellent "experimental models" and not make them a part of their lineup with full warranty so many more of us can buy them and enjoy them?

Some of the most excellent Surefire products will never be seen much less used by anyone except a select few such as yourself and some other fortunate people here.

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Sometimes products are created to fit the needs of a specific client or use, and in the end, for one reason or another, they don't go into mass production, and thus, don't have a supply of replacement parts to back them up.

Basically, the fact that people (outside of the clients these were created for) even got to own these was above and beyond Surefire's business practice. In reality, extras like these would get destroyed / never released for consumption. How often have you seen the likes of Fenix / Streamlight / Mag / anyone release a handful of prototype lights that never made it into the mainstream (not limited editions)?

Does it suck that you got one of these experimental lights and it broke? Certainly, I don't wish that on anyone. I know nothing about the inner workings of that tail cap, but maybe someone here might be able to come up with a solution to bring your PKEF back to life, whether multi-level or not.

Lightguy27 said:

Were any of the variations of the A2T ever sold by dealers as a PKEF?

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Nope. In terms of experimental proto-types the PKEFs were the first and last time anything like this was offered.

Devil's advocate...they don't have to offer these items to anyone. They could just destroy them as other companies do.

My thoughts are that anyone who's fortunate enough to obtain any PKEF item has a fairly rare & unique piece to be appreciated, eh?

Mr. Kim, PLEASE sign me up! :thumbsup:

socom1970 said:

Al, I don't understand. Why does Surefire make these excellent "experimental models" and not make them a part of their lineup with full warranty so many more of us can buy them and enjoy them?

Some of the most excellent Surefire products will never be seen much less used by anyone except a select few such as yourself and some other fortunate people here.

I just don't get it...:sigh:

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It is simply not possible for SureFire to bring every concept they work on into production. SureFire R&D proto-type a bewildering array of concepts and variations. It takes a long time and many iterations to refine a concept into a design that can be sent out for field-testing. As a result of field-testing it is usually refined further or perhaps shelved at this stage. Throughout the process the R&D team are mindful of whether/how it could be mass-produced in terms of how much effort does it take to fabricate and assemble etc. A whole host of other factors such as cost and image and marketability are considered by the wider SureFire business. If the project is given the green light it will be scheduled into the production stream. Finding slots in the various processes could take weeks or months depending on how busy SureFire are. Supplying Military and Government contracts as well as contracts with large retailers may prevent SureFire getting new products into production as soon as they like.

I sometimes wonder whether it would have been better not to know about certain proto-types. There's one in particular that I wish SureFire would have decided to make. The fact that the business decided to go another route is something I have to learn to accept. It's happened many times over the years.

The PKEFs were steps towards more refined models. I don't consider them production-worthy and neither did SureFire. They were experiments designed to host and test concepts rather than be end-products. The Kroma and Kroma-MS were one of the main results as were the HelmetLights I believe which just goes to show that when you seek feedback on a concept your target user group may end up wanting something completely different...

Al

I like the PKEF. I'm happy that I have the DARPA. It is a piece if SF history for me. I'm no as fortunate as others to be a "field tester".

Socom1970, what is wrong with your light? Or did you just want the two stage clicky? AFAIK you can get it working win a normal KROMA body and tailcap. As I had said before, in another thread, you can get the PKEF to behave like a normal kroma if you use a single cell rechargeable lion battery like a 17650. This lower voltage is not strong enough for the third setting. So you get low-high-low.

Sounds fair to me. People complaining about it will probably make them not offer experimental lights to the general public.
I would not buy an experimental light and if ever did I would probably put it in the living room for display purposes. That ought to make for some interesting conversations with guests. I'm guessing that they are a very limited few examples of them in the whole wide world or in other words very limited, not many of them, do not scratch extremely rare.

Solscud007 said:

I like the PKEF. I'm happy that I have the DARPA. It is a piece if SF history for me. I'm no as fortunate as others to be a "field tester".

Socom1970, what is wrong with your light? Or did you just want the two stage clicky? AFAIK you can get it working win a normal KROMA body and tailcap. As I had said before, in another thread, you can get the PKEF to behave like a normal kroma if you use a single cell rechargeable lion battery like a 17650. This lower voltage is not strong enough for the third setting. So you get low-high-low.

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I do like my PKEF with B5K and C5K heads very much.

And to answer Solscud007's question, there is a bit of weirdness with my levels which, as I use it, ended up being no big deal at all. Once I bought a KROMA and saw how they worked, I didn't feel bad anymore about how my PKEF was. And I have been using a 17650 cell in my PKEF and have not yet seen what you are describing. I also have a PKEF C5K head (Blue, IR, White), no body, that does work ok, exactly as you have said in you posts. So, I know my B5K head has a problem, but one that I can live with just fine. Funny that using my PKEF B/C5K helps me to appreciate my KROMA even more.

Also, my tailcap is fine. It just isn't the two-stage clickie that some of them had. It is the same twisty tailcap that is on the KROMA light. I just wanted to buy one of the two-stage clickies if they were still available.

And, yes, I probably would still buy another PKEF light if it was available, I liked it and I could afford it. Regardless of warranty or not, I have a very deep appreciation for Surefire lights. My first serious light was a Laser-Products 6P over 20 years ago and I have been buying Surefires ever since.

It is just a hard pill to swallow that a light made by SF that costs that much would have no warranty to back it up if something goes wrong. For the most part, I have had excellent experiences with SF CS and that is one of the main reasons why I keep buying Surefires.

Incidentally, my PKEF C5K head has a date with Milky! I'm thinking some Orange 5mm's, Yellow-Green 5mm's, and an MC-E!:thumbsup:

When I first got my PKEF 5K back in 2006, the 2 stage clikcy wasn't working correctly so I called SF about 2 weeks after I received the light to see if they could fix it. The SF Customer Rep at that time said that if it has Surefire on the light, they will warranty the light. So, they gave me an RMA and I shipped it back. A few weeks later, they sent the light back and the 2 stage clicky worked much better than when I first received the light.

Too bad SF changed their policy.

seattlite said:

When I first got my PKEF 5K back in 2006, the 2 stage clikcy wasn't working correctly so I called SF about 2 weeks after I received the light to see if they could fix it. The SF Customer Rep at that time said that if it has Surefire on the light, they will warranty the light. So, they gave me an RMA and I shipped it back. A few weeks later, they sent the light back and the 2 stage clicky worked much better than when I first received the light.

Too bad SF changed their policy.

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At that time SureFire likely still have a few pieces kicking about so it was possible for them to effect a repair/replacement.

Given that now they can't repair the PKEFs Experimental components I think that if one really pushed SureFire they may replace your PKEF with the closest current model which would either be the Kroma or Kroma-MS.
Not quite the same thing though.

I took my PKEF B5K, complete without warranty, to a great Cub Scout campout this weekend. I am very fine with it. It did a very admirable job as the LuxV+TIR optic worked well to blow away every other light at the camp. As well, the fairly bright red and blue led's were a real hit with many of the scouts, who had never seen a light like mine.

I don't know what tint of blue my led's have, but they seem a bit more pleasing to my eyes than the blue led's in my A2 were (now modded with bright white). They were very good for navigating around the campsites and trails at night. The red led's are also quite pleasing and were very useful when sitting around the campfire and helping out others who were performing routine camping tasks at night (roasting marshmallows, s'mores, general eating and picking up of stuff) that regular lights were unpleasant to use for as everyone's eyes were adapted to the darkness and campfire.

Additionally, the camp has an observatory with an excellent telescope that we visited on Saturday night. No white lights at all are allowed in the observatory tower, and the red lighting they had inside the structure was not very effective, especially for working with the equipment. Well, guess who was the only one in the whole camp who had a red light at all, let alone one as effective and bright as the PKEF?!! I ended using the PKEF's red setting for helping others navigate in the observatory and for helping the guy operating the equipment. HE didn't even have a red light or any other color for that matter. Everybody was commenting on my light, "Wow, that's really neat!" "Where did you get a light like that?" "Glad SOMEBODY brought a light we can use in here!"

Warranty or not, my PKEF B5K is definitely a keeper. And I still would buy another PKEF/DARPA/prototype SF if I had the money/opportunity!:thumbsup:

socom1970 said:

Yup... you read the title right. I have been in contact with Surefire Customer Service over the last week regarding possible warranty issues with my PKEF B5K and possible purchase of a three-stage clickie for it.

I was told today as well as last week by a Surefire CS rep that because it is an "experimental flashlight", there is no expressed warranty on it or any experimental Surefire lights.

So, even though my PKEF B5K is made by Surefire, has the "Surefire" logo and info on it, and cost me $370.00 total to purchase, Surefire will not warranty it or any part of it. They don't even carry the tail-caps or other parts for it as part of their stock/inventory. "The parts were made for the experimental runs, and that's it." as he put it.

If this is the case, I guess I'd better take really good care of my PKEF and not buy any more of Surefire's experimental PKEF lights. "If it breaks, oh well..."

Is this right or wrong? Does anyone know?

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I think it´s wrong.

If it was made by Surefire, has the Surefire logo and info, it should be covered by Surefire lifetime warranty.

Federal LG said:

I think it´s wrong.

If it was made by Surefire, has the Surefire logo and info, it should be covered by Surefire lifetime warranty.

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If you think that way then Surefire would be better off to destroy prototypes or at least make sure they never reach public hands.
Why would they warranty something that isn't a commercially recognised product?
Norm

I think I would look at it as a collector's item...not a tool that will get beat up over years of use, or a "normal" flashlight that is to be modded. I'm sure it would be worth MUCH more to a collector, undamaged and in original condition. Hence the old saying, condition, condition, condition...


I'd love to see some pics of it!