Modular, Upgradable Ti Light - killing the golden egg?

easilyled

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The holy grail for me is to have a modular upgradable series of lights that is designed in a material that is indestructible, non-corrosive and will not look worse for wear when it is inevitably scratched.

To this end Ti is the ideal material in my opinion. Yes, it doesn't conduct heat away from the led as well as aluminium, but this is becoming academic as leds become more efficient, because its already possible to have a very acceptable output from a Titanium light at a level which does not shorten the life of the led.

I am wondering however if a modular design of Ti lights that are upgradeable, similar in principle to the Aleph lights for instance, is something that manufacturers are reluctant to bring out because by doing so, customers would be less likely to buy new lights and instead just hang on to these lights and buy upgrade modules for them instead.
Futhermore the upgrade modules would be able to produced by sources other than the original manufacturers thus further limiting any incentive for this to be done.

Maybe this is why this is so rare and that the Aleph system although so successful in aluminium was never transferred to Titanium by McGizmo?

Anyone care to chime in, particularly manufacturers?
 

js

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easilyled,

I moved this thread to the LED flashlights forum as it did not belong in custom & mod B/S/T.

As for Titanium vs. aluminium and heat issues in an LED light, if you click on my sigline link you will find a whole section, complete with heat transfer calculations, to show that Titanium is a totally viable metal, heat-transfer-wise, for an LED flashlight and also what its advantages are.
 

easilyled

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easilyled,
I moved this thread to the LED flashlights forum as it did not belong in custom & mod B/S/T.

Thanks js. That is where I meant to put it, but all these Aluminium flashlights must be giving me Aldsheimer's!
 

HDS_Systems

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EasilyLed,

Perhaps I can provide one perspective on your question. As you may know, we recently announced our second titanium flashlight run. The first one was quite the learning experience even though we only made a handful. It took a long time before we were willing to look at titanium again.

There is little doubt that working with titanium is much more expensive than working with aluminum. This is due to higher material cost, higher machining costs and additional insulation requirements because there is no insulating anodize coating the surface. One benefit of titanium in this regard is that there are no anodizing costs and no post anodize operations to be performed. However, the net effect is that a titanium flashlight will be significantly more expensive to manufacture.

When you significantly raise the price of a flashlight by going with titanium, you dramatically reduce the possible market size. Markets are price sensitive, no matter what you sell. This forces you into a much smaller production run, which in turn raises the price due to dropping economies of scale. Producing one of something can easily be 100x to 200x more expensive than the per piece cost when producing a thousand of the same thing. The cost difference is even higher if you add in the cost of R&D (research and development). This is in addition to the costs previously mentioned.

So, let's go back to your original premise - the modular light. There are several items that might be considered candidates for "modules". The LED. The reflector. The power supply. The battery compartment. The button and perhaps the switch. Then comes the question whether or not modules should be swappable without tools.

In the case of the LED, swapping without tools becomes difficult if you want to ensure a good electrical connection and a good thermal path. The same probably holds for the power supply. Most of the other "modules" can probably be designed to thread together and thus swapping modules without tools is practical for those other modules.

The main reason to swap the LED is to avoid obsolescence. LED technology is progressing at roughly 20 to 25% per year. Although one year's increase is not enough for the average person to see, two or three years can produce a substantial increase. Due to the thermal, electrical and optical issues involved, I would argue that the LED "module" should not be considered a user-serviceable part. This is why we are planning to offer an LED upgrade when sufficiently good LEDs become available.

The main reason to swap the electronics is to add features to the flashlight or to make the electronics more efficient. Generally, the original design will have set the maximum power due to size and thermal considerations - something that swapping modules cannot fix. We don't consider the power supply a user-serviceable part. We are probably unique in the flashlight industry because we have a fully software controlled power supply and user interface. We already have the highest power efficiencies in the industry so there is probably no need to worry about increasing the power supply efficiency. And since we can upgrade the software, we can always make improvements to our existing power supply and user interface design without changing the hardware. I.e., we can add all of the latest features to the older power supplies. Whenever you get a new (higher output) LED, you automatically get one or more additional brightness levels, the latest features and a fully recalibrated flashlight.

Our design is capable of swapping reflectors, swapping battery compartments and swapping buttons (by swapping the switch cap). The singular issue is this: are there enough customers willing to pay the price for these modules to make it cost effective to manufacture them?

I submit that our design is fully capable of doing exactly what you are asking for. I also submit that the market may not be large enough to justify manufacturing the other modules.

A few years ago a CPF member was going to manufacture an extra battery tube for one of our products. We were willing to help him with technical information so that everyone would be sure that his custom part would work. He started an interest thread and got around 30 hits, as I remember. He then went out for quotes to manufacture the part. He was floored by how much it was going to cost. It came out to over $50 each for 50 units, as I remember. And that was in aluminum. Needless to say, the project got scrapped.

If I was assured that I could sell a reasonable number of accessory parts for a profit, I would not be reluctant to make them. The reluctance is in taking the risk of manufacturing parts that no one will buy.

On a side note, as others have mentioned, the thermal characteristics of titanium will not be a significant limiting factor in a good design. Even if a pure titanium design cannot be accommodated for thermal reasons, a hybrid design using a copper or aluminum spreader next to the LED can fix a marginal design and still allow for a full titanium exterior. Our titanium heat sink has no problems dissipating the heat.

Henry.
 

woodrow

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Henry,

I read your reply with great interest. It was great (not to mention informative) to see the answer to the question of modular construction from a manufactures point of view.

Thank you very much for such a well worded response that even a layman like myself could clearly understand.

brad
 

Yucca Patrol

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Very informative post, Henry. Thanks. (now can I have my 18650 battery tube for my clicky?)

Deerelight is one manufacturer that has taken this approach. You can buy one DBS model and upgrade it with various reflectors, heads, LED pills, and extension body tubes. Biggest problem for turning out a titanium version is that the light is rather large and would probably be even more expensive than Henry's current offering.

As Henry said, the potential customer base shrinks considerably when the lights become very expensive. I own three Ra lights, but still cannot bring myself to pull the trigger on one that costs 6x as much and performs essentially the same as the ones I already have.
 

waddup

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i dont think its killing the egg, as long as we can buy brighter/throwier/floodier/longer running dropins, and different bodies for different battery configurations the egg is safe.
 

easilyled

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Thanks very much for your informative reply Henry.
I do find it very interesting to hear this from your point of view.
 

monanza

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I don't really think a modular Ti offering will be self defeating. In fact, I am more likely to buy backup units of the light if upgrades are likely to be available from a reputable source such as Henry. Furthermore, cost, upgradability, and modularity do not stop me from buying new Ti offerings (finances permitting). Every light is a new experience regardless of how perfect the previous one was or appeared to be.

The more modular the better! :thumbsup:
 

skfurr

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In the last two months I've been so impressed with Henry's work that I now have three Ra Clickys: a standard $139 executive model w/ 140lm, a custom made 170lm model with TiNAl coated Ti bezel for $245, and just received this week my all Ti Clicky w/ sapphire lens and 170lm for $640.

Not cheap, but it's a jewel of a light which I plan to EDC!

I also had the foresight to pick up a spare HA battery tube w/ switch, a reflector, a lens, a extra o-ring and a spare clip ($101) just so I could do minor repairs (as Henry said it's mostly modular.)

Henry did mention elsewhere that on the Ti Ra Clickys he's planning to offer LED upgrades in the future for the cost of the new emitter, 1/2 hour labor, and you of course pay for shipping it back to him for him to do the work. And of course he'll flash (pun intended) the microcode to the latest version and calibrate the output to put out exactly the rated lm of the emitter.

All in all I'm one very happy camper and all of my flashlight money will be going to Henry from now on.

Stephen
 

Darkspark

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HDS_Systems - Henry:

Thank you for a briliantly informative response. This is simply another reason why CPF is such an amazing resource and enjoyable place to spend some time, even for a wanna-be like myself.:thumbsup:
 
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