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Thread: Master thread for disasters and generators.

  1. #601
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by scout24 View Post
    BVH- I'll vouch for the eu7000i. We've got 1250+ hours on ours, it's now been used by us and family friends for many many weeks, nonstop except for oil changes and refueling. Only maintenance beyond the oil changes was a fuel filter at just over 1000 hours. There was a service bulliten regarding the early filters, but it's run like a top since new.
    Thank you Scout. I just parted company with my 1983 EM4500. It looked and performed like it did the day dad and I bought it. A little sad but the clean power from the future 7000 was more important. And fuel injection and O2 sensor controlled mixture is a strong "want". The CO sensor - it's nice but not needed. The Bluetooth is nice but I don't know if I'll really use it.
    Last edited by BVH; 02-22-2021 at 09:03 AM.
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Syniosbeam by Enderman

  2. #602
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    I recall reading up on the interlock route, but it skipped my mind - far simpler than a transfer switch and I could possibly scam in an ammeter somehow. Will have to check my panel and see what flavor of interlock kit is available - I recall it's not quite like the example demonstrated.

    Feeding the two 120V legs simultaneously via an adapter of some flavor is also simpler than the rabbit hole I was going down - using a 120 to 240V split-phase transformer. Standard advice I'm seeing amounts to "DIY the cable and jumper the 2 hots". Also renders the 240V circuits inop in the process.
    That's what I did before the whole house unit. Feed one leg from eu2k, made a jumper plug that I put in a 240v outlet for a welder. No problems.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
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  3. #603
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Got around to categorizing my loads divided by category by room. The three categories I'd really like to back up roughly sum to peak/startup wattage of 4096 and expected running wattage 2217. The startup figure is a bit exaggerated since I would not be flipping all the loads on at once; running an ideal sequence it Theoretically™ peaks at 3573W ... but that's not how the circuits are laid out so I need to do a little more tinkering with the math to decide what kind of peak/running watts I need and how much margin I want.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  4. #604
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Whoever laid out the breaker for my house not only had almost indecipherable handwriting but also did it in the most random-arse way possible.

    But looks like under ordinary circumstances my startup load will be ~2628W worst-case with my running load being ~1627W. The >3000W starting generators I've been looking at should have some margins for additional load.
    Last edited by idleprocess; 02-24-2021 at 04:08 PM. Reason: proofreading
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  5. #605
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    Whoever laid out the breaker for my house not only had almost indecipherable handwriting but also did it in the most random-arse way possible.

    But looks like under ordinary circumstances my startup load will be ~2628W worst-case with my running load being ~1627W. The >3000W starting generators I've been looking at should have some margins for additional load.

    +

    Transfer switches & gens are going to become harder to get,,, I'd say don't wait

    https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...2786_200702786

    https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...2787_200702787

    you see they are 6 or 10 circuit switches : so you have decide what is most critical to power up.

  6. #606
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by orbital View Post
    Transfer switches & gens are going to become harder to get,,, I'd say don't wait
    I expect a (local, temporary) run on whole-house generators - or at least the capacity to install them. However, like building in a floodplain or right up to the high tide line, people have short memories and there's always a falloff between "never again" uttered reflexively, a hand raised with some knowledge of the costs, then the final check cut after the memory has faded and the full cost is understood.

    Also, I expect to go the interlock route since it can be one-and-done and scale to whatever kind of limited-capacity backup generator I want to attach. Suspect I can get some instruments on the generator feed before the breaker panel to know what the load is doing as I switch on circuits.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  7. #607
    *Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    I expect a (local, temporary) run on whole-house generators - or at least the capacity to install them. However, like building in a floodplain or right up to the high tide line, people have short memories and there's always a falloff between "never again" uttered reflexively, a hand raised with some knowledge of the costs, then the final check cut after the memory has faded and the full cost is understood.

    Also, I expect to go the interlock route since it can be one-and-done and scale to whatever kind of limited-capacity backup generator I want to attach. Suspect I can get some instruments on the generator feed before the breaker panel to know what the load is doing as I switch on circuits.
    You can go with the 'didn't go into overload, must be ok' option.

    A clamp ammeter is pretty easy & cheap. You need UNjacketed wiring to go around a single conductor.

    This one's really cheap, but should be ok.
    https://www.amazon.com/KAIWEETS-Mult...3T&sr=8-5&th=1
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
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  8. #608
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    You can go with the 'didn't go into overload, must be ok' option.

    A clamp ammeter is pretty easy & cheap. You need UNjacketed wiring to go around a single conductor.

    This one's really cheap, but should be ok.
    https://www.amazon.com/KAIWEETS-Mult...3T&sr=8-5&th=1
    Panel is in the garage, generator will be a couple doorways away, so flipping breakers until overload apt to be a frustrating experience. I'll probably do something panel mount ala...
    https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multimet...dp/B01M8LCWNW/
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  9. #609
    *Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    The 'if it works it must be ok' also works better than expected. Back when I ran the whole house off a single eu2k, I would let the fridge start up (which usually happens immediately) then turn lights & electronics on.

    If you go over, the genset will lose rpm/voltage causing the lights to dim. Then just turn the last item off and you are good. Never ran into that problem with lights and such.

    The practical problem is the fridge. If you are loaded somewhat close to the limit (accounting the a fridge RUNNING), then STARTING the fridge could cause a temp brownout. Solutions are 1) turn fridge way down to make it run nonstop 2) use breaker to pick when fridge will run 3) live with it 4) pick load(s) as to leave extra capacity.

    Thinking back, yamaha made an electric start inverter unit that was unique. It used the battery to boost the output for a short time, sort of like a hybrid car. It had a really high surge capacity... not a bad design.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
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  10. #610
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    +

    That hybrid concept is interesting.

    idleprocess, what generator(s) have you narrowed it down to?
    or is one inbound

  11. #611
    *Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    I looked it up. It's the yamaha inverter 'boost' series. Does not look popular, must have not sold well.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
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  12. #612
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by orbital View Post
    idleprocess, what generator(s) have you narrowed it down to?
    or is one inbound
    My general requirements are:
    • >3000W starting power since margins are a good thing
    • Enclosed inverter generator for quality power and quiet operation
    • Dual-fuel since propane is far more suitable to long-term storage than gasoline
    • ~8 hour runtime since I might have to backup an entire work shift
    • Electric start with remote start being a plus


    The Firman WH3200IE is one contender - gasoline 3200/2900, propane 2900/2600. It's relatively inexpensive at Costco for $850 (there are occasional $200 off promos), which means local pickup and any DOA issues should be easy to sort out. Downside is that I'll have precious little operating margin although if there's a promo I could splurge on two for considerable margin operating in parallel.

    Another contender is the Westinghouse iGen4500DF - gasoline 4500/3700, propane 4050/3330 - which is more capable and has a remote start. Local pickup likely not available, but if I do a ship-to-store I suspect I can avoid the abuse that UPS/FedEx routinely inflict on larger/heavier packages and save on shipping.

    There's a thriving aftermarket of bolt-on generator mods - with propane power being one of the more common/popular - which could bring a number of gasoline-only generators into consideration such as the Wen mentioned earlier and the surprisingly well-reviewed Predator 3500. Downside is that propane conversions generally cost more than OEM options and seem to cut into output a bit more than OEM versions as well.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  13. #613
    *Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    When comparing generators, all things equal, I would lean toward the one with larger displacement engine.

    The early eu2k clones were an example of this. They would claim eu2k output, but reviews would be full of 'lacks power' comments. When you checked, the engine would be 20% less displacement than the honda.
    Last edited by turbodog; 02-25-2021 at 10:34 AM.
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  14. #614
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    idleprocess,
    considering that your summers are quite HOT, I'd think air conditioning is important.

    If your house has central A/C and runs on 220/240 volts, none of the units you mentioned will do 220/240, but only 110/120.

    You can get a 4K 220 unit for less than any of those you mentioned. The draw back is that they burn 2-4 times as much fuel, and they are very loud in comparison.
    I have seen a couple of 220V inverter generators, but they are over $1000

    I put my 5500 Coleman in a deck box that I sound insulated, and it made a huge improvement. I've seen videos where people use sheets of plywood, sheet rock, or unused doors, to direct the sound towards the ground, and that makes a significant improvement.

    In this video you can skip ahead to about 4:50

    My Grand Kids call me Poppy

  15. #615
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    I'm actually picking up a yamaha efg(?)2800 inverter unit today to try and fix a fuel leak on the carb. Was used during snomageddon 21.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
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  16. #616
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    When comparing generators, all things equal, I would lean toward the one with larger displacement engine.
    Let's devise a metric for an apples-to-apples comparison - we'll go with round numbers and something we can rank low-to-high : CC/kW for starting and running watts.

    Of the models I've discussed (with some Honda models thrown in for comparison):
    • Westinghouse iGEN4500DF : 224 cc - 50 cc/kW starting, 61cc/kW running
    • Firman WH02942 : 171 cc - 53 cc/kW starting, 59 cc/kW running
    • Honda EU2200i : 121 cc - 55 cc/kW starting, 67 cc/kW running
    • Wen 56380i : 212 cc - 56 cc/kW starting, 62 cc/kW running
    • Predator 3500 : 212 cc - 61 cc/kW starting, 71 cc/kW running
    • Honda EU3000is : 196 cc - 65 cc/kW starting, 70 cc/kW running



    There are some spreads here between the best and worst. The Honda EU3000is has 30% more CCs per starting kW than the Westinghouse. The Predator has 20% more CCs per running watt than the Firman.

    The Westinghouse has the largest engine, but is last place in terms of metrics. But if I derate to comparable units it improves : The Wen's 3800/3400 gives 59/66 while the Firman's 3200/2900 gives 70/77.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  17. #617
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy View Post
    idleprocess,
    considering that your summers are quite HOT, I'd think air conditioning is important.
    The primary use case for my project is being able to cover working from home in the event of an all-day power outage. The generator must be fairly quiet since it will live in a side yard between two houses ~20' apart. As such I've deliberately omitted 240V loads. I've got window units for single-room cooling during the day and at night if required.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  18. #618
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    +

    Factoring in price, these stand out.


    • Wen 56380i : 212 cc - 56 cc/kW starting, 62 cc/kW running
    • Predator 3500 : 212 cc - 61 cc/kW starting, 71 cc/kW running



    Flip a coin now!

  19. #619
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by orbital View Post
    +

    Factoring in price, these stand out.


    • Wen 56380i : 212 cc - 56 cc/kW starting, 62 cc/kW running
    • Predator 3500 : 212 cc - 61 cc/kW starting, 71 cc/kW running



    Flip a coin now!
    Add in $100-$200 for a non-OEM propane mod and the decision is more ambiguous.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  20. #620
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Because I'm a masochist, I threw together a spreadsheet comparing spec sheet data and some metrics for nearly all of the inverter generators I could gather data on as well as any "pro" open-frame generators I could find that claimed THD of ≤5% (I gather this is the standard for commercial electric power). There are holes in the data for sure - 25% load metrics are common but 50% are not, the propane lbs-to-gallons figure of 5.66 lb/gal disagrees with Professor's Google's opinion that the figure is actually 4.2 lb/gal, many models are likely no longer available, and I didn't dial them down to the point that I can point out all the badge-engineered 'platforms' with confidence (i.e. the extreme similarities between many 2000/2500/3500-4500 peak-watts formfactors - example of being Westinghouse IGEN4500 with apparent Onan, Pulsar, Energizer, Champion, Wen, Cat variants).

    The propane metrics are somewhat suspect since the site I used claims 5.66 lbs/gallon while Professor Google claims 4.2 lbs/gallon. Given that the interesting dual-fuel units are all but unobtanium right now I may simply opt for a gasoline unit and deal with the long-term logistics of gas storage - will probably be cheaper in the long run. Small gas tanks and short runtimes aren't a big concern for a stationary application since an outboard gas tank (modify vent cap or procure a bespoke cap to seal, run hose into vented auxiliary tank - carb pulls a vacuum naturally and sucks gas into the inbuilt tank) allows for arbitrarily long runtimes.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  21. #621
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    If you look back through this long/merged thread you will find where I did fuel usage measurements on the eu2k unit. In short, IIRC, I saw about a 10-20% fuel efficiency increase using eco throttle up to almost full load. However, due to decreasing extra capacity as load increased, I suggest running without eco throttle at sustained loads above 75%.

    Edit: checked my spreadsheets

    eu2k:
    load-eco% improvement-gal/hour
    300-47%-.1
    745-50%-.13
    800-33%-.16
    965-23%-.19
    1270-10%-.22
    1390-10%-.27
    Last edited by turbodog; 03-02-2021 at 07:37 PM.
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  22. #622
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    I calculated efficiency because it was easy and of some ... academic ... interest. If I ever do an RV, efficiency will be important since generator power can cost dollars per kWH.

    For backup power purposes, my main concern would be knowing how much fuel is needed for a given duration of runtime at a given level of output.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  23. #623
    *Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    I calculated efficiency because it was easy and of some ... academic ... interest. If I ever do an RV, efficiency will be important since generator power can cost dollars per kWH.

    For backup power purposes, my main concern would be knowing how much fuel is needed for a given duration of runtime at a given level of output.
    Comparing fuel usage gives a quick justification for buying any inverter-equipped model. Payback is pretty quick.

    And fuel usage overall is key... even the eu2k, at medium loads (700-800 watts) will burn ~3 gallons a day. On a week long outage you need 20 gallons, which is usually more than most people have on hand. And running around trying to get fuel all the time is a losing proposition.

    On the 'good' side, sustained 700-800 watts can run an awful lot, except for heat/AC. That's plenty of power for lights, fan, computers, tv, internet, fridge, and so on. There's also excess power for toaster, hair dryer, and microwave if you turn off other higher loads temporarily.

    If I didn't need auto start capability for work, I would still be running the pair of eu2k's.
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  24. #624
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Iirc, my 5500 watt gennie, powered by a 10hp briggs drank about 2/3 gallon an hour. Or about 1.5 hours per gallon. A 5 gallon tank would last maybe 8 hours.

    My 3500 watt inverter will run about 4.25 hours per gallon.
    Last edited by Poppy; 03-03-2021 at 07:38 PM.
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  25. #625
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Did a more thorough assessment of my actual critical WFH loads and determined that so long as I don't do something absolutely nonsensical (such as run the furnace and air conditioning at the same time) I could live within the capabilities of a ~2000W / 1600W compact generator. But if I went minimal I would invariably find that I want more than 1600W continuous or do something dumb like fire up the microwave when I'm running at 75% load. Thus the dilemma is whether to source two compact units in parallel or a single larger unit standalone ... pricing on the 3800W/3400W WEN 56380i direct from the manufacturer is really good.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  26. #626
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    If pricing on the 3800 wen is close to (2) ~2000 units then I would go with the dual units. If one fails, you have a spare. Also, they are smaller and more portable... leading to enhanced non-disaster usage/enjoyment.

    Maintenance is so low on any of these as to not be an issue.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
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  27. #627
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    If pricing on the 3800 wen is close to (2) ~2000 units then I would go with the dual units. If one fails, you have a spare. Also, they are smaller and more portable... leading to enhanced non-disaster usage/enjoyment.

    Maintenance is so low on any of these as to not be an issue.
    ~$900 for a pair of smaller units vs a who-know-how-long special price of $650 for the larger unit.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  28. #628
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    +

    $750 for two WEN 56203i https://wenproducts.com/collections/...carb-compliant

    That's a bit of a bargain

  29. #629
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    If pricing on the 3800 wen is close to (2) ~2000 units then I would go with the dual units. If one fails, you have a spare. Also, they are smaller and more portable... leading to enhanced non-disaster usage/enjoyment.

    Maintenance is so low on any of these as to not be an issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by orbital View Post
    +

    $750 for two WEN 56203i https://wenproducts.com/collections/...carb-compliant

    That's a bit of a bargain
    This is the route I've opted to take and have placed my order. Now to overengineer a 'doghouse' and see what an electrician is going to charge to rework my electrical panel.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  30. #630
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    This is the route I've opted to take and have placed my order. Now to overengineer a 'doghouse' and see what an electrician is going to charge to rework my electrical panel.
    When I had my 5500 watt 10 HP Coleman gennie, it was heavy enough that it would take two men to carry it 100 feet. If ONE man could carry it that far, he would be way to big for me to mess with him if he wanted to steal it. To protect it from a determined thief, is nearly impossible, but I poured a bag of concrete into a hole I dug, with an eye-bolt anchor, and chained it to it.

    I used a plastic deck box to house it. I mounted a exhaust fan into the side of it, and raised it about 4 inches off of the ground for ventilation. The fan was plugged into the gennie and ran when it was running. I sound insulated it with foil faced foam. I don't know how fire retardant the foil would be, but I suspect it wouldn't meet code. I also put some rat bait and poison in the box, incase some furry tailed rats (squirrels) got in there to chew up the wiring, or fuel line.
    My Grand Kids call me Poppy

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