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Thread: Master thread for disasters and generators.

  1. #751
    *Flashaholic* Poppy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Nice review turbodog

    Recently I saw that Harbor Freight has introduced a 9500 surge Watt 120/240 V super quiet inverter generator for $1800.

    Time will tell, how dependable they are. I am delighted to see that more 240V inverters are being offered, and with more competition, the prices will continue to fall. I hope.

    Personally, I don't need 240V except for central AC during the summer. Due to the fact that we rarely have a black out, and even more rarely - one that lasts more than a few hours, $1800 is difficult to justify. Especially, when one can typically get a used, standard open frame 240V gen-set in good shape for about $400.
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  2. #752
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy View Post
    Nice review turbodog

    Recently I saw that Harbor Freight has introduced a 9500 surge Watt 120/240 V super quiet inverter generator for $1800.

    Time will tell, how dependable they are. I am delighted to see that more 240V inverters are being offered, and with more competition, the prices will continue to fall. I hope.

    Personally, I don't need 240V except for central AC during the summer. Due to the fact that we rarely have a black out, and even more rarely - one that lasts more than a few hours, $1800 is difficult to justify. Especially, when one can typically get a used, standard open frame 240V gen-set in good shape for about $400.
    Main benefits of a 240v unit are 1) easier feeding of your house... you can heat up both legs/phases and 2) deep well pumps for people NOT on public water.
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by scout24 View Post
    ...

    A big advantage over the clamshell or suitcase inverter gensets is accessability to work on things if you need to: I replaced the pull cord on my eu2000i this spring, and boy was it a deep dive. They're so tightly packaged! I figured I'd rather R&R the recoil starter on a sunny day at my leisure rather than have the fraying cord let go in the dark while it was snowing or raining.

    ...
    This is basically an exact copy of the yamaha ef(?)2800 unit. I reviewed one of those in this thread a few years back, comparing it to the eu2000.

    At the end of the day... if you want something as quiet as an eu2000... then buy an eu2000.

    The honda/yamaha 2800 are nice units. They are easier to work on. The hot air is not as focused as eu2000. I often lay wet clothes/shoes/etc behind the eu2k for drying.



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    Last edited by turbodog; 05-13-2021 at 06:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by scout24 View Post
    <snip>

    *Side note*- Finally made a cord to go from my 2000i to the side of my house yesterday... (L14 30 amp twistlock) No more extention cords off the "little" generator, it now can backfeed my panel to code like the big generator when needed.
    How does one wire a cord like that to feed a 220V panel gen input box, with a 110V outlet?
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    *Flashaholic* turbodog's Avatar
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Jumper across the 2 hots in the plug.
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Jumper across the 2 hots in the plug.
    Alternatively, use a 4-conductor cord and terminate both hots to the single hot on the male plug.

    The one pitfall to doing this is if your panel features multiwire branch circuits. With 240V split-phase these are not an issue since the two phases are neatly 180° out of phase and I gather that the voltage on neutral just looks like full-wave rectified AC. But if you're feeding both 120V legs with the same phase and run both circuits at full load, that's potentially double the current on the neutral which your breakers cannot do anything about. Mercifully, these are generally easy to identify - the breaker pairs are often mechanically bound and one of the pair will generally have a red wire as opposed to the usual black for the hot.
    Last edited by idleprocess; 05-13-2021 at 09:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Thank you gentlemen
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    Alternatively, use a 4-conductor cord and terminate both hots to the single hot on the male plug.

    The one pitfall to doing this is if your panel features multiwire branch circuits. With 240V split-phase these are not an issue since the two phases are neatly 180° out of phase and I gather that the voltage on neutral just looks like full-wave rectified AC. But if you're feeding both 120V legs with the same phase and run both circuits at full load, that's potentially double the current on the neutral which your breakers cannot do anything about. Mercifully, these are generally easy to identify - the breaker pairs are often mechanically bound and one of the pair will generally have a red wire as opposed to the usual black for the hot.
    I looked at the pic, focusing on the hots. Looked again at neutral. I get it, but is crap like this normal, and if so, where? Have not seen this in practice anywhere.

    Did some quick reading... this shared neutral is a whole 'accident waiting to happen' thing more or less.

    https://www.twielectric.com/safety-a...ranch-circuit/

    https://inspectapedia.com/electric/M...l-Circuits.php

    Conditions exist for 1) an overloaded neutral and 2) an ENERGIZED neutral. Neither is appealing.

    Additionally, according to my quick reading... the black & red hots are supposed to be zip tied together to designate this in the breaker panel in _most_ circumstances and should be inserted into a common trip breaker.
    Last edited by turbodog; 05-13-2021 at 10:56 AM.
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  9. #759
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    ...if your panel features multiwire branch circuits. ....
    As a 120v generator won't properly energize a 240v panel... just throw all the double pole breakers. _should_ solve the problems.
    This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
    Be prepared for the truth.

  10. #760

    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    The one pitfall to doing this is if your panel features multiwire branch circuits. With 240V split-phase these are not an issue since the two phases are neatly 180° out of phase and I gather that the voltage on neutral just looks like full-wave rectified AC. But if you're feeding both 120V legs with the same phase and run both circuits at full load, that's potentially double the current on the neutral which your breakers cannot do anything about. Mercifully, these are generally easy to identify - the breaker pairs are often mechanically bound and one of the pair will generally have a red wire as opposed to the usual black for the hot.
    Having looked at this for a couple specific (non-generator) applications, none of the approaches that tie multiple hot legs that are normally on different phases (or opposite sides of a center-tap) meet Code. The potential for an overloaded neutral is real, but can be mitigated by ensuring that the rating of the source (in this case, the generator) does not exceed the rating of any individual downstream branch circuit. So an EU2000 feeding a 20A multiwire branch circuit would be fine, since the maximum current that the generator can source is less than the 20A that the neutral for that circuit is rated for. But the L5-30 output from an EU3000 feeding a panel with a 15A multiwire branch circuit would present a dangerous scenario, since there is the possibility for overloading the neutral on that 15A circuit (the generator can source more than 15A, each side of the circuit is protected at 15A, but the neutral could be carrying the full current rating of the generator, ~24A).

  11. #761
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    I looked at the pic, focusing on the hots. Looked again at neutral. I get it, but is crap like this normal, and if so, where? Have not seen this in practice anywhere.
    As far as I know, MWBCs haven't been code in residential construction for many decades.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Did some quick reading... this shared neutral is a whole 'accident waiting to happen' thing more or less.
    Oh yes. They probably draw their roots from the practices of a ~century ago when running materials were expensive, labor was cheap, and safety standards nonexistent; i.e. there are methods seen occasionally in old homes that can leave the threaded portion of Edison sockets electrically hot at all times that saves on wire vs modern methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Additionally, according to my quick reading... the black & red hots are supposed to be zip tied together to designate this in the breaker panel in _most_ circumstances and should be inserted into a common trip breaker.
    [/quote]
    Yeah, they're Supposed To Be™ clearly ID'ed with adjacent mechanically bonded 120V breakers and tied together as a bundle in the panel with red for the "B' phase. I have a vague recollection of seeing the bonded breaker thing once before in one of the family's past homes but never got into that panel - it may have been a hack to extract a 240V circuit without a 240V breaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    As a 120v generator won't properly energize a 240v panel... just throw all the double pole breakers. _should_ solve the problems.
    Part of my plan for going on generator power - throw all the circuits then close critical 120V circuits in descending order of expected startup watts.

    Quote Originally Posted by LEDphile View Post
    Having looked at this for a couple specific (non-generator) applications, none of the approaches that tie multiple hot legs that are normally on different phases (or opposite sides of a center-tap) meet Code.
    As far as I know, in permanent installations they haven't met code for many decades. After some very quick reading I gather they see some use for construction site power as a minimally-acceptable expedience.

    Quote Originally Posted by LEDphile View Post
    The potential for an overloaded neutral is real, but can be mitigated by ensuring that the rating of the source (in this case, the generator) does not exceed the rating of any individual downstream branch circuit.
    For most panels this won't be an issue since the practice has been disallowed for some time, but one should check for them prior to attempting 120V backfeed into a 240V split-phase panel nonetheless.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  12. #762

    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    As far as I know, MWBCs haven't been code in residential construction for many decades. As far as I know, in permanent installations they haven't met code for many decades. After some very quick reading I gather they see some use for construction site power as a minimally-acceptable expedience. For most panels this won't be an issue since the practice has been disallowed for some time, but one should check for them prior to attempting 120V backfeed into a 240V split-phase panel nonetheless.
    MWBCs are still permitted as of the 2017 NEC (and likely the 2020, but I haven't checked), but are required to have the breakers for all the hots ted together (either with a 2-pole breaker, or with single-pole breakers and handle ties). And that configuration is reasonably common for temporary power distribution (e.g. 2x 120V outlet circuits fed from an L14-20).

  13. #763
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by LEDphile View Post
    MWBCs are still permitted as of the 2017 NEC (and likely the 2020, but I haven't checked), but are required to have the breakers for all the hots ted together (either with a 2-pole breaker, or with single-pole breakers and handle ties). And that configuration is reasonably common for temporary power distribution (e.g. 2x 120V outlet circuits fed from an L14-20).
    I stand corrected. Just seems problematic for permanent installations.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  14. #764
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    As Turbodog said, I jumped hot from the 110v source across both hot legs of my 4 wire plug leaving my eu2000i. It has regular 3 wire hot/neutral/ground 110v outlets leaving the generator. This is the only generator this cord will be used with, and only to run my fridge and freezer rather than juggling two long extention cords. House main gets shut off, all individual breakers get flipped off except those two. The 220/240 4 wire is in place on the house side so I can run the house off my eu7000i, and with some thought as to loads it works well. In a prolonged outage, I wanted the option of using the smaller generator to conserve fuel.
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  15. #765
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by scout24 View Post
    As Turbodog said, I jumped hot from the 110v source across both hot legs of my 4 wire plug leaving my eu2000i. It has regular 3 wire hot/neutral/ground 110v outlets leaving the generator. This is the only generator this cord will be used with, and only to run my fridge and freezer rather than juggling two long extention cords. House main gets shut off, all individual breakers get flipped off except those two. The 220/240 4 wire is in place on the house side so I can run the house off my eu7000i, and with some thought as to loads it works well. In a prolonged outage, I wanted the option of using the smaller generator to conserve fuel.
    This is my plan - only somewhat in reverse. Got a pair of 1700W nominal units I plan to parallel as needed - possibly cutting down to just 1 if conditions warrant it. If I ever decide I need a 240V unit, the 50A 120V/240V connection will be there.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  16. #766
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by idleprocess View Post
    This is my plan - only somewhat in reverse. Got a pair of 1700W nominal units I plan to parallel as needed - possibly cutting down to just 1 if conditions warrant it. If I ever decide I need a 240V unit, the 50A 120V/240V connection will be there.
    Before I got the whole house unit I had my setup next to a subpanel in the garage.

    Have 3 outlets there: 20a duplex on phase 1, 20a duplex on phase 2, and a 240v plug.

    I would then:
    throw main house breaker
    insert a jumpered plug into the 240v outlet
    hookup eu2k into each 120v outlet
    crank one
    crank other if needed

    This avoided making/buying parallel cables which will actually overload a single eu2k duplex plug depending on how your parallel cables are made.

    Just make SURE you remove that jumper plug before main power is turned back on.
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog View Post
    Before I got the whole house unit I had my setup next to a subpanel in the garage.

    Have 3 outlets there: 20a duplex on phase 1, 20a duplex on phase 2, and a 240v plug.

    I would then:
    throw main house breaker
    insert a jumpered plug into the 240v outlet
    hookup eu2k into each 120v outlet
    crank one
    crank other if needed

    This avoided making/buying parallel cables which will actually overload a single eu2k duplex plug depending on how your parallel cables are made.

    Just make SURE you remove that jumper plug before main power is turned back on.
    When you had both 2000i units running, did you remove the jumpered 240v plug?
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Nope. Otherwise, depending on generator phasing, you would read some voltage (between 120 and 240) across the 2 hots.

    I will also mention, as a reason to throw all your 240 breakers, that some 240v equipment taps into 1 phase for a separate 120v load. Clothes dryers do this. The motor is 120v and heating coils are 240v.
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  19. #769
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Finally found a new EU7000 in-stock online after waiting around 8 months. I'll have it tomorrow. Looking forward to some playtime!
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Syniosbeam by Enderman

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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    +

    Fords F150 Lightning Truck {100% EV}

    "The Ford Intelligent Backup Power option can provide 9.6 kilowatts of power to a home through its 80-amp Ford Charge Station Pro, which Ford can help install in a home garage. The system can automatically kick in when a loss of power occurs in a home, and then cut off the flow when power is restored."

    from autoweek.com

    ^this could have gone into a few different threads, Energy thread, Cars Man, Master thread for disasters ..

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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Extremely pleased with the EU7000. Runs at no-load on Eco throttle at 2400 RPM providing up to about 1200 Watts with no increase in RPM. For us, that means it will run most of it's life at 2400 with some peaks to 2600. Max RPM is 3300. It's located about 15 feet horizontal and 10 feet vertical from the room we spend most time in and we can just barely hear it, sometimes not. Bought the 4-wheel, all-terrain kit for it and it makes it much easier to handle. Changed the oil at about 2.5 hours after running the house for two of those hours.
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Syniosbeam by Enderman

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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Often, carbon monoxide poisoning from generators, kills as many people after a hurricane, than the hurricane kills.



    https://youtu.be/7sdGHaQEPL4?t=34
    Last edited by Poppy; 05-31-2021 at 04:57 AM. Reason: restructured sentence.
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    BVH- I may have to look into that wheel kit. I've got a fair bit of grass and gravel to pull/push mine through from the garage to the house.
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Hopefully the tire kit is composed of flat free tires.

    On today's to-do list is: fix a flat on my hand truck. I discovered that it holds air for less than three days. IDK, maybe, less than an hour.
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    The OEM wheels/tires were not very round. There was a lump, lump, lump when rolling. IIRC, the steel wheel hub rode right on the axle shaft, no bearing, no bushing no wear material what-so-ever. The kit I bought (he is out of stock now, MRI-Denver on Ebay) uses actual ball bearings, 2 per wheel and tube tires. The addition of the friction reducing bearings makes a very big difference. I added washers and shim stock to bring the end thrust on each wheel down to about .005". The OEM end thrust was around .120" and the wheels clanked against the axle fixed washer as it rolled. I'm a bit surprised at Honda in this respect. I'll check tire pressure in a few days to see the leak down rate. I thought about putting something in them like slime or something else.
    WWII 60" Carbon Arc (Sold), 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600W M-134 Light, 500W X-500-14s, 500W Starburst, 500W A120b, 450 Watt AEG German Leopard 1 Tank Light, 300W Locators, Megaray, 150W Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, Syniosbeam by Enderman

  26. #776
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy View Post
    Hopefully the tire kit is composed of flat free tires.

    On today's to-do list is: fix a flat on my hand truck. I discovered that it holds air for less than three days. IDK, maybe, less than an hour.
    Home Depot sells solid rubber tires with bearings.
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Home depot seems to be out of them in-store and on-line. Northern Tool has them but the stock axle is .750" and the NT wheel bearings are .625" bore. Need to check the offset too. The kit I bought uses .625" axles inserted into some square tubing to end up with the same approx. .750" diameter.

    https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

    Here's some 10", .750" bore, bearing equipped, no-flat all-terrain wheels slightly wider.

    https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...B&gclsrc=aw.ds
    Last edited by BVH; 05-31-2021 at 10:09 AM.
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  28. #778
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    During Superstorm Sandy, there were a lot of gas stations with tanks of fuel, but no electricity to pump them. If they had even only temporary power, to pump their tanks dry, that may have alleviated some of the initial crush.

    While I am sure that the gas stations are powered, at least with 240 Volts. What are the pumps running on 120V or 240V?
    Could a 240 Volt construction type generator power some of the pumps? I don't have an understanding of 2 and 3 phase power.
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  29. #779
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    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy View Post
    During Superstorm Sandy, there were a lot of gas stations with tanks of fuel, but no electricity to pump them. If they had even only temporary power, to pump their tanks dry, that may have alleviated some of the initial crush.

    While I am sure that the gas stations are powered, at least with 240 Volts. What are the pumps running on 120V or 240V?
    Could a 240 Volt construction type generator power some of the pumps? I don't have an understanding of 2 and 3 phase power.
    During the 2007 ice storm here when half the state was without power a major convenience store chain brought in generators to power their stations and the pumps. They were large I think on pallets had to be moved with forklifts. I didn't see any of them close up as they had them behind fences. Generators here were all gone quickly I was without power for over 4 days but luckily I had a 4 bay nimh charger with car adapter and a dozen Energizer 2300s to give me light and a battery powered table radio for entertainment.
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  30. #780

    Default Re: Master thread for disasters and generators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    During the 2007 ice storm here when half the state was without power a major convenience store chain brought in generators to power their stations and the pumps. They were large I think on pallets had to be moved with forklifts. I didn't see any of them close up as they had them behind fences.
    "Portable" generators are available for rental in sizes up to ~2MW, with the larger sizes generally being either trailers, shipping containers, or a combination of the 2 (although skid-mounted units are available). For a convenience store without a permanently-installed generator, they probably brought in medium-sized units, either skid or trailer mounted. As an example, here's Cat's lineup of "portable" generators: https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/n...ts.html?page=2 Note that the smallest is higher rated than most "whole house" generators.

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