NITECORE -- Keep Innovating        
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 74

Thread: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

  1. #1

    Default Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Is it technologically even possible?

  2. #2
    Flashaholic jahxman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Doylestown, PA
    Posts
    385

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    They already do; the Electrolumens KONG-12 puts out over 10,000 lumens.

    If you mean from a single emitter/bulb, they already do that too - the SST-90 puts out more lumens than many HIDs.

    It's true that if you are talking single emitter/bulb, the brightest HIDs are still a lot brighter - and LED technology will need to improve considerably to shed the heat needed for a single LED emitter to put out as much - so probably the HIDs will have the upper hand there for a while. But with improvements in heat management, I can certainly see LEDs eventually surpassing HIDs.
    Seeing the small is called Clarity. Keeping flexible is called Strength. Using the shining Radiance, You enter the Light, Where no harm can come to you. This is called Enlightenment. - Lao Tzu

  3. #3

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    in 10 years im sure there will be a single AA 'primary' light that can do 5000 lumens for 2 hours.

    and in 20 year we will all have double that output fitted to our foreheads at birth, and run it of our own bodies naturally generated electricity.

    20 years after that the sun will implode and flashlights is all there will be for light and warmth.

    stock up
    If and when the the big dookie hits the fan, and global chaos ensues, i want a couple of quality AA lights within reach.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    >in 10 years im sure there will be a single AA 'primary' light that can do 5000 lumens for 2 hours.

    Theoretical maximum would be 5,000 lumens for ~30 mins on a AA.

    I wouldn't expect anything beyond 4 or 500 lumens tho for 1 hour.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkysko View Post
    >in 10 years im sure there will be a single AA 'primary' light that can do 5000 lumens for 2 hours.
    In 10 years we will have night vision eye inplants, no flashlight will be needed.

    About the main question, i think it is subjetive. If they made a 40-die emitter, or a super large singledie led, it would be able to generate more lumens than a hid bulb. But they can also make a giant hid bulb and power source as well.


  6. #6
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Land of Spiders
    Posts
    4,865

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    It's the Surface Brightness what really makes HID stand out from other light sources, not just total output.

  7. #7
    Flashaholic* lctorana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,114

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    It's the Surface Brightness what really makes HID stand out...
    Got time to explain that? I'm curious.

  8. #8
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Santa Clara, Ca
    Posts
    1,311

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    I am not an expert, but high power HID's are just north of 100 lumens per watt. LED emitters are now in the range of 120 lumens per watt. So the two technologies have close efficacy.

    For absolute lumens, HID is probably more reliable at this time but as LED efficacy improves the gap will shrink. Personally, I now lean towards HID for 1,500+ lumens.

    Now I have to go start spending on HID lights. Time to start saving.

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Land of Spiders
    Posts
    4,865

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by lctorana View Post
    Got time to explain that? I'm curious.
    Check this out: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=125819

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=139958

    Very interesting post, everybody should read it -->> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...8&postcount=20

    That's why LEDs will never be able to do something like that.. They have atrocious surface brightness and it is only getting worse as die-sizes are increasing or multi-LED/multi-cores are being used to crank out more output.
    Last edited by Outdoors Fanatic; 09-14-2009 at 09:46 PM.

  10. #10
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    north carolina
    Posts
    1,209

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    heat is also a very big obstacle facing LEDs.

  11. #11
    Flashaholic* AnAppleSnail's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    South Hill, VA
    Posts
    4,200

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    Check this out: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=125819

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=139958

    Very interesting post, everybody should read it -->> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...8&postcount=20

    That's why LEDs will never be able to do something like that.. They have atrocious surface brightness and it is only getting worse as die-sizes are increasing or multi-LED/multi-cores are being used to crank out more output.

    The idea being, "LEDs have a given surface brightness and are made brighter by larger dies," right? And so the inevitable postage-stamp-size 1000-lumen single-die emitter coming out next year will need huge optics to be as useful as an HID source, which is much smaller and more intense?

    And yes, I'll have to finish reading these threads; they look fun.
    My biggest light-hog is my camera.

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* divine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,808

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    It will be tough to do more output than a 1000w metal halide... HID's output is way beyond the handheld market already.

    I don't think this thread even applies.
    "For every good deed, there is an equal an opposite bad deed."

  13. #13
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,208

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    I love my HID but weight and runtime is the shortcoming. Price too. Really unless there is a larger area or out in the country or open space I can do without HID. LED have come a long way and they can almost hold they own against HID. That said HID are a different application compared to LED.

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Land of Spiders
    Posts
    4,865

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by marinemaster View Post
    I love my HID but weight and runtime is the shortcoming. Price too. Really unless there is a larger area or out in the country or open space I can do without HID. LED have come a long way and they can almost hold they own against HID. That said HID are a different application compared to LED.
    Actually, as output increases, HIDs easily beat LEDs in runtime. A Polarion Helios PH40 cranks out 4150 lumens for a full hour and 20 minutes in regulation. Show me a portable LED light which can do the same. These superpowerful LEDs need in excess of 9Amps to achieve something even 50% close of that output, but try doing that with a portable battery pack plus a portable cryogenic station in order to keep it cool... Just not happening.

  15. #15
    Flashaholic* csshih's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Posts
    3,948

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    in 10 years im sure there will be a single AA 'primary' light that can do 5000 lumens for 2 hours.
    nah... I'd think chemical energy, even if 100% efficiently converted to light would not be super bright like that.

    unless you're talking about nuclear AAs

  16. #16
    Flashaholic* Crenshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    4,308

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    I have a feeling there will be a radical new technology at one point that will give a jump in LED efficiency. Thats how these things seem to happen, in sudden jumps, then slow developement, then jump.

    think about it

    5mms leds were "WOW!" for awhile, then came luxeons, then came Crees.

    I too am not a fan of multidie emittors, as far as im concerned, thats cheating.

    Eventually, LEDs will reach insane lumen/watt ratio, and be able to actually take alot of current, which will give it the ability to outdo HID. If not led, then some other radical technology will do to LEDs what LEDs did to incans.

    Crenshaw

  17. #17
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Land of Spiders
    Posts
    4,865

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by AnAppleSnail View Post
    The idea being, "LEDs have a given surface brightness and are made brighter by larger dies," right? And so the inevitable postage-stamp-size 1000-lumen single-die emitter coming out next year will need huge optics to be as useful as an HID source, which is much smaller and more intense?

    And yes, I'll have to finish reading these threads; they look fun.
    Yeah, that's the very basic idea. But even with huge optics, that hypothetical stamp-sized single-core LED will not throw light as far as mercury-arc, xenon short-arc and HID.

  18. #18
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Land of Spiders
    Posts
    4,865

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Crenshaw View Post
    I have a feeling there will be a radical new technology at one point that will give a jump in LED efficiency. Thats how these things seem to happen, in sudden jumps, then slow developement, then jump.

    think about it

    5mms leds were "WOW!" for awhile, then came luxeons, then came Crees.

    I too am not a fan of multidie emittors, as far as im concerned, thats cheating.

    Eventually, LEDs will reach insane lumen/watt ratio, and be able to actually take alot of current, which will give it the ability to outdo HID. If not led, then some other radical technology will do to LEDs what LEDs did to incans.

    Crenshaw
    That's going backwards on the evolutionary scale of efficiency, and totally defeats the application of LEDs in portable illumination devices.

    Those SST50-90 LEDs are able produce nuclear-meltdown temperatures at max spec current as it is, so I don't think the flashlight market wants any other LED capable of higher currents. Those obviously are not emitters made for handheld lights.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* Crenshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    4,308

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    That's going backwards on the evolutionary scale of efficiency, and totally defeats the application of LEDs in portable illumination devices.

    Those SST50-90 LEDs are able produce nuclear-meltdown temperatures at max spec current as it is, so I don't think the flashlight market wants any other LED capable of higher currents. Those obviously are not emitters made for handheld lights.
    Actually my point is that its not an impossible notion that eventually LEDs may reach a level of efficiency that will allow them to surpass HID in per Amp output, and actually be able to take the required amps to outdo lower level HID.

    look at current single die leds. The maxium they can do is 1A, perhaps 1.2A before they get dagerously close to going what i mean i by higher current, is current matching those of HID and Incan. I imagine that future technology will let them take up to 4amps, and have en efficiency graph that doesnt detioriate as fast.

    Yes, i agree it will take a while yet, or may not happen at all, because leds are just so darn small, there is sure to be some kind of thermal theoratical maximum.

    Again, im not talking about multidie emittors.

    Crenshaw

  20. #20

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkysko View Post

    Theoretical maximum would be 5,000 lumens for ~30 mins on a AA.

    I wouldn't expect anything beyond 4 or 500 lumens tho for 1 hour.
    wow, id take either of those
    If and when the the big dookie hits the fan, and global chaos ensues, i want a couple of quality AA lights within reach.

  21. #21
    *Flashaholic* Patriot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    10,637

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    Actually, as output increases, HIDs easily beat LEDs in runtime. A Polarion Helios PH40 cranks out 4150 lumens for a full hour and 20 minutes in regulation. Show me a portable LED light which can do the same. These superpowerful LEDs need in excess of 9Amps to achieve something even 50% close of that output, but try doing that with a portable battery pack plus a portable cryogenic station in order to keep it cool... Just not happening.

    A big +1 to this as I thought this was the best post in the thread so far. (bold emphasis mine)



    Even given the unlikely example in OF's post, LED has a better chance of successfully matching the efficiency and output in the future than it ever has of matching the throw performance of HID. While throw performance is related directly to surface brightness, the topic of this thread is "output" which I generically take to mean overall lumens produced. If they can overcome the heat issue, overall lumen output will eventually become possible. On the surface, this obstacle may sound like a simple matter of time and development but it's actually a fairly large gap to overcome. The materials for example aren't going to change than much in the next decade. LED light makers are still stuck with the typical aluminum, copper, brass, ti, SS, ect. The LED dies themselves are also somewhat fixed with the patterns and materials we currently have, so unless new materials are developed that can handle twice the heat in half the space it will remain a barrier. Active or some other means of hyper cooling seems to be the only hope for the near future.

    To match the throw of a current 14W HID it would roughly take a die size one half the surface area of the XP-E while producing more than twice the output, resulting in much higher surface brightness. To use OF's phrase, "it's just not happening" now or anytime soon, especially considering the rate of LED advancement we've seen over the last 2 years. They've made advancements but nothing close to what would be required to close the gap. I'm speculating that at some point LED's will undergo some revolution or a completely new technology will emerge.

  22. #22
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    houston, tx
    Posts
    2,290

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    In three years, there will be no Led, no HID, only candles.
    Don't you read about "2012 doomsday"?

  23. #23
    Flashaholic js-lots's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Suffolk, New York
    Posts
    191

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by waddup View Post
    in 10 years im sure there will be a single AA 'primary' light that can do 5000 lumens for 2 hours.

    and in 20 year we will all have double that output fitted to our foreheads at birth, and run it of our own bodies naturally generated electricity.

    20 years after that the sun will implode and flashlights is all there will be for light and warmth.

    stock up
    In 20 years I will probably still be on this stinkin website looking for the next best Led.

  24. #24
    Flashaholic* Juggernaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    A place in need of light.
    Posts
    1,468

    Yellowlaugh Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Crenshaw View Post
    Eventually, LEDs will reach insane lumen/watt ratio, and be able to actually take alot of current, which will give it the ability to outdo HID. If not led, then some other radical technology will do to LEDs what LEDs did to incans.
    What? Create an even worse CRI!

    Sorry Iím just joking, I have nothing against LEDs.
    ďWhat do you mean LEDs are more efficient then Incans?Ē, thatís just what they want you to think! Itís a Conspiracy, Man!

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* Crenshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    4,308

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    What? Create an even worse CRI!

    Sorry Iím just joking, I have nothing against LEDs.
    lol, i didnt think of that. maybe thats aqua green Electro Lumiscence will suddenly jump to 2000lumens/amp. what then?

    lol, but im never throwing out my Mag85.

    Crenshaw

  26. #26

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    Actually, as output increases, HIDs easily beat LEDs in runtime.
    I agree with Patriot. This is the best post here. To make me laugh. I think what you meant to say was "as size and weight increases, HIDs easily beat LEDs in runtime." Seriously. That PH40 is almost four pounds! How many LED flashlights of equal size and weight can you point me to? Why then are you comparing that to LEDs? All the pessimists here will laugh at what they thought and wrote on this day come a few years from now. If you guys only knew.

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Land of Spiders
    Posts
    4,865

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by saabluster View Post
    I agree with Patriot. This is the best post here. To make me laugh. I think what you meant to say was "as size and weight increases, HIDs easily beat LEDs in runtime." Seriously. That PH40 is almost four pounds! How many LED flashlights of equal size and weight can you point me to? Why then are you comparing that to LEDs? All the pessimists here will laugh at what they thought and wrote on this day come a few years from now. If you guys only knew.
    Have you seen the size and weight of the current LED lights cranking out 1500+ lumens? Have your seen the Howitzer or the Kong? Compared to that, the Helios is a keychain light-- but with much better runtime and cooler operational temperature to boot! Now that is something to laugh about...

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* Glenn7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Tasmania, Australia (the butt end of oz)
    Posts
    1,546

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Hmmmmm....... for those in the know we'll see - I put my vote with led's

  29. #29

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoors Fanatic View Post
    Have you seen the size and weight of the current LED lights cranking out 1500+ lumens? Have your seen the Howitzer or the Kong? Compared to that, the Helios is a keychain light-- but with much better runtime and cooler operational temperature to boot! Now that is something to laugh about...
    OK thats two. But one is downright cartoonish and the other built with a much tighter cost constraint than the $2.2k Polarion. Sorry but this is not a fair fight. You must trust that if I posted what I did it was not a guess.

  30. #30
    *Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Flushing, NY
    Posts
    5,892

    Default Re: Will LED Flashlights Ever Produce More Output than HID's

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot View Post
    The LED dies themselves are also somewhat fixed with the patterns and materials we currently have, so unless new materials are developed that can handle twice the heat in half the space it will remain a barrier. Active or some other means of hyper cooling seems to be the only hope for the near future.
    Actually, heat becomes less and less of an issue as we continue to get efficiency up. The first power LEDs converted something like 5% of their power to light. The rest came out as heat. Now we're around 30% light, 70% heat. The Cree XP-G will get us to about 40% light, 60% heat. Not only is the amount of heat produced for any given power input going down, but the amount of heat to produce a given number of lumens is going down even faster.

    Say you want 1000 lumens. Back in the days of 18 lumen Luxeons you would have needed maybe 60 watts, and would have had to deal with 57 watts of heat (note: 1000 lumens = roughly 3 watts of light energy given typical LED spectra). Prior to when the XR-E came out the best LEDs were about twice as efficient as the aforementioned Luxeon. So now you needed 30 watts for 1000 lumens, but your waste heat dropped for 57 to 27 watts. Now the Cree XR-E comes out. You can do 1000 lumens with 15 watts and 12 watts waste heat. Notice how power usage dropped by a factor of four from our initial calculation but waste heat dropped by nearly a factor of five. And we're not done yet. Your R2 bin XR-E will do the 1000 lumens with 9.5 watts and 6.5 watts of waste heat. The new XP-G will do the same with about 7.7 watts and only 4.7 watts of waste heat. Look especially at this last case. Efficiency only jumped about 24% (from 105 to 130 lm/W), yet waste heat dropped by 39%. Oh, and all of these calculations are based on efficiency at 350 mA. And of course you'll need multiple emitters to get 1000 lumens, even today.

    In short waste heat is gradually trending towards zero. It may never get there, but at some point the batteries won't be able to drive the LED hard enough to produce enough waste heat to stress the thermal path. Let's say that a given AA emitter/torch body combo effectively deals with 3 watts of heat. In the early days that essentially meant that you couldn't drive the LED much harder than 3 watts (almost all of the input power left as heat). Now with the Cree XP-G we need to drive the LED to about 5 watts to get the same 3 watts of waste heat. And if we ever reach 80% conversion efficiency (I think we will by 2020), then you'll need to drive the LED to 15 watts to reach the limits of your thermal path. Lots of luck finding a AA cell which can do that. And if you do, it'll do it for a few minutes at best. Even 5 watts per cell is pushing things. In short, the time will come where our lights will run cool simply because the cells we use can't push them hard enough for long enough. Chemical cells may improve, but it's difficult imagining them improving by a factor of 3 or 5 in energy density and current capability.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •