Lying With Statistics thread

after all these years I finally located this thread from 2003 ! I though was deleted;
it was impossible to find , almost, because 'tedtheled' was changed to 'donotdelete' for some reason, perhaps no reason, perhaps a reason no one understands..?.. anyway, here it is, read it, my cat made some of the posts, and it's even more timely now, providing lessons in economics, capitalism, unemployment, and more, meow meow meow!

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/15068

excerpt: "...

* Without taxes and social programs, ruthless
capitalism will make a few filthy rich and most others, wretched. *It is so
easy to be nice and a gentleman when you're rich... to be poor and human is much more difficult... *you know? *what does it mean to be human? *to love, to have compassion and to realize we are all in this thing together--so just don't forget about the 200,000,000 americans making less than $35,000. a year for a family of four, while 80,000,000 are doing just great, going to private schools and going shopping. *It is not human to be selfish--it is egotistical and deluded--you will not be full of joy. *So there are 2 reasons not to give the rich tax breaks (1) it's not fair and (2) no one
will be happy... *mroww... "

so waddaya think?

Interesting thread, and very relevant to the times. The funny thing is that it's history repeating itself. The very same themes led to massive social reforms across the pond in the early 20th century.

I think it'll set a record for how long it took a thread to get moved to the Underground..

why is that star? or are you just tempting fate?

Man that is a look back on how CPF used to be. What I don't understand is why you didn't just bump the old thread? Maybe you can't? Let's see?

Yes it could have been bumped. LOL!

TedTheLed said:

why is that star? or are you just tempting fate?

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It's a fine thread, it's just Underground material. Especially since six years ago was a much calmer time; once the shrill voices of the modern age find the thread, it will get ugly..

StarHalo said:

It's a fine thread, it's just Underground material. Especially since six years ago was a much calmer time; once the shrill voices of the modern age find the thread, it will get ugly..

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I agree. I'd love to be able to discuss the material in that thread in a calm manner, but I fear once we start, sooner or later it would go downhill for whatever reason. Each side will start accusing the other of the worst extremes of their power of view.

the bump worked yes, but, as I said, it wasn't possible to find with a search, well for me and my 10 year old software anyway..
now you can enter my name and the tile and find it..

yep I just tries a search again, and got the second posting with the link..
(but this time the original post was right under it in the google list :shrug: )

as for where it belongs, maybe we will need to move the discussion about the duiscussion to the UG and keep the original thread here
c'mon let start a fight about where it belongs even before Empy gets here!

TedTheLed said:

the bump worked yes, but, as I said, it wasn't possible to find with a search, well for me and my 10 year old software anyway..
now you can enter my name and the tile and find it..

yep I just tries a search again, and got the second posting with the link..
(but this time the original post was right under it in the google list :shrug: )

as for where it belongs, maybe we will need to move the discussion about the duiscussion to the UG and keep the original thread here
c'mon let start a fight about where it belongs even before Empy gets here!

Click to expand...

I think 'Empy" crackup is always here. He has a personal alert system setup for every time I post. :kiss:

ripe for bumping?

I think lying with statistics is getting kind of long in the tooth.

In the old days, the days when we were a culture based on the written word, lying with statistics was a bigger thing. When we were a culture of the word people would write words down, other people would read them and then form their own images in their minds. Today our culture bypasses the written word because influencing the masses that way is far too expensive and time consuming. Today we rely on the image to convey propaganda. The image is the end all and be all of 21st century propaganda.

The "lying statistics" you encounter is just a 'workaround' to reach you die-hards who read.

maybe you're right

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/2...ins-but-only-for-the-wealthy-and-uber-wealthy

Sub_Umbra said:

I think lying with statistics is getting kind of long in the tooth.

In the old days, the days when we were a culture based on the written word, lying with statistics was a bigger thing. When we were a culture of the word people would write words down, other people would read them and then form their own images in their minds. Today our culture bypasses the written word because influencing the masses that way is far too expensive and time consuming. Today we rely on the image to convey propaganda. The image is the end all and be all of 21st century propaganda.

The "lying statistics" you encounter is just a 'workaround' to reach you die-hards who read.

Click to expand...

I can follow your reasoning, but it's almost worse with a populace churning out graduates who can't even read taking their daily allowance of stats verbally and accepting their definition as stated without bothering to research and confirm on their own.



Also it must be noted that very often when people point out that stats can not be taken out of context if they are to be properly understood, usually do so in order to muddy the waters further by choosing how they present said stats in order to further their own agenda by use of a smoke and mirrors presentation.

The more salacious the presentation, the more suspect the content, and the more worth of searching out their motives and agenda.

nothing gets by YOU guys...

Would that put us on the same side, or opposites?

kaichu dento said:

I can follow your reasoning, but it's almost worse with a populace churning out graduates who can't even read taking their daily allowance of stats verbally and accepting their definition as stated without bothering to research and confirm on their own...

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IIRC it was over two decades ago that West Point established a remedial reading program for freshmen because they could no longer fill their rolls with students capable of jumping straight into their program. Yeah, West Point.

Bear with me for a bit. In 1961 my brother was enrolled into one of the military academies and I still recall what a big deal it was -- at our house, anyway. My brother had to get a Congressional Appointment to get into that school. This was the only way that my folks would ever be able to afford an education like that. Fast-forward 20 or 30 years. In spite of the fact that the military academies only have a very limited number of slots each year AND there has traditionally been intense competition for them -- today our schools do not produce students capable of stepping into their curriculum.

On another level the whole word vs image thing that I touched on above is really huge, IMO. It is very easy to pump crap into people's minds using images (TV, etc.) In word based societies the the images (read conclusions) are based on words (as building blocks laying a foundation for our own images.)

Also note that it is nearly impossible to change an opinion that was formed as a result of exposure to images. Words cannot compete at all. People who base their opinions on the images fed to them by others actually don't even know why they hold their beliefs because they have never thought any of it through.

I think that our society's use of imagery in place of the word (absolutely no religious connotations) is perhaps a far greater engine for change than is generally realized. Creepy.

Sub_Umbra said:

On another level the whole word vs image thing that I touched on above is really huge, IMO. It is very easy to pump crap into people's minds using images (TV, etc.) In word based societies the the images (read conclusions) are based on words (as building blocks laying a foundation for our own images.)

Also note that it is nearly impossible to change an opinion that was formed as a result of exposure to images. Words cannot compete at all. People who base their opinions on the images fed to them by others actually don't even know why they hold their beliefs because they have never thought any of it through.

I think that our society's use of imagery in place of the word (absolutely no religious connotations) is perhaps a far greater engine for change than is generally realized. Creepy.

Click to expand...

I agree with everything you've posted here, but the worst part of it all is that it doesn't have to be so. The enabling tool in play is indoctrination whereby we have education based on teaching independent thought processes which will allow an individual to understand when what they're being sold is not based on solid logical/realistic premises. Some of the individuals to blame are not doing so deliberately but out of their own misunderstanding of what constitutes proper education and placing higher value on learned absolutes as opposed to the the ability to reason things out.
The truly bad ones are the ones who actually know what it is they're doing, and make the conscious choice to preclude the growth of independent thought in order to allow the type of control you're talking about. Creepy is one good word for it.

tell me you have heard of Marshal McLuhan,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message

"..Likewise, the message of a newscast about a heinous crime may be less about the individual news story itself — the content — and more about the change in public attitude towards crime that the newscast engenders by the fact that such crimes are in effect being brought into the home to watch over dinner..."

Bingo!