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Thread: Lying With Statistics thread

  1. #1
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    Default Lying With Statistics thread

    after all these years I finally located this thread from 2003 ! I though was deleted;
    it was impossible to find , almost, because 'tedtheled' was changed to 'donotdelete' for some reason, perhaps no reason, perhaps a reason no one understands..?.. anyway, here it is, read it, my cat made some of the posts, and it's even more timely now, providing lessons in economics, capitalism, unemployment, and more, meow meow meow!

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ad.php?t=15068

    excerpt: "...

    * Without taxes and social programs, ruthless
    capitalism will make a few filthy rich and most others, wretched. *It is so
    easy to be nice and a gentleman when you're rich... to be poor and human is much more difficult... *you know? *what does it mean to be human? *to love, to have compassion and to realize we are all in this thing together--so just don't forget about the 200,000,000 americans making less than $35,000. a year for a family of four, while 80,000,000 are doing just great, going to private schools and going shopping. *It is not human to be selfish--it is egotistical and deluded--you will not be full of joy. *So there are 2 reasons not to give the rich tax breaks (1) it's not fair and (2) no one
    will be happy... *mroww... "

    so waddaya think?
    Last edited by TedTheLed; 09-26-2009 at 08:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread


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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Interesting thread, and very relevant to the times. The funny thing is that it's history repeating itself. The very same themes led to massive social reforms across the pond in the early 20th century.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    I think it'll set a record for how long it took a thread to get moved to the Underground..

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    why is that star? or are you just tempting fate?

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Man that is a look back on how CPF used to be. What I don't understand is why you didn't just bump the old thread? Maybe you can't? Let's see?

    Yes it could have been bumped. LOL!

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TedTheLed View Post
    why is that star? or are you just tempting fate?
    It's a fine thread, it's just Underground material. Especially since six years ago was a much calmer time; once the shrill voices of the modern age find the thread, it will get ugly..

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    It's a fine thread, it's just Underground material. Especially since six years ago was a much calmer time; once the shrill voices of the modern age find the thread, it will get ugly..
    I agree. I'd love to be able to discuss the material in that thread in a calm manner, but I fear once we start, sooner or later it would go downhill for whatever reason. Each side will start accusing the other of the worst extremes of their power of view.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    the bump worked yes, but, as I said, it wasn't possible to find with a search, well for me and my 10 year old software anyway..
    now you can enter my name and the tile and find it..

    yep I just tries a search again, and got the second posting with the link..
    (but this time the original post was right under it in the google list )

    as for where it belongs, maybe we will need to move the discussion about the duiscussion to the UG and keep the original thread here
    c'mon let start a fight about where it belongs even before Empy gets here!

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TedTheLed View Post
    the bump worked yes, but, as I said, it wasn't possible to find with a search, well for me and my 10 year old software anyway..
    now you can enter my name and the tile and find it..

    yep I just tries a search again, and got the second posting with the link..
    (but this time the original post was right under it in the google list )

    as for where it belongs, maybe we will need to move the discussion about the duiscussion to the UG and keep the original thread here
    c'mon let start a fight about where it belongs even before Empy gets here!
    I think 'Empy" () is always here. He has a personal alert system setup for every time I post.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    ripe for bumping?
    originally cpf member #14 write me at gmail.

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    Flashaholic* Sub_Umbra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    I think lying with statistics is getting kind of long in the tooth.

    In the old days, the days when we were a culture based on the written word, lying with statistics was a bigger thing. When we were a culture of the word people would write words down, other people would read them and then form their own images in their minds. Today our culture bypasses the written word because influencing the masses that way is far too expensive and time consuming. Today we rely on the image to convey propaganda. The image is the end all and be all of 21st century propaganda.

    The "lying statistics" you encounter is just a 'workaround' to reach you die-hards who read.
    Last edited by Sub_Umbra; 11-18-2011 at 09:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Last edited by TedTheLed; 11-19-2011 at 03:24 PM.
    originally cpf member #14 write me at gmail.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub_Umbra View Post
    I think lying with statistics is getting kind of long in the tooth.

    In the old days, the days when we were a culture based on the written word, lying with statistics was a bigger thing. When we were a culture of the word people would write words down, other people would read them and then form their own images in their minds. Today our culture bypasses the written word because influencing the masses that way is far too expensive and time consuming. Today we rely on the image to convey propaganda. The image is the end all and be all of 21st century propaganda.

    The "lying statistics" you encounter is just a 'workaround' to reach you die-hards who read.
    I can follow your reasoning, but it's almost worse with a populace churning out graduates who can't even read taking their daily allowance of stats verbally and accepting their definition as stated without bothering to research and confirm on their own.



    Also it must be noted that very often when people point out that stats can not be taken out of context if they are to be properly understood, usually do so in order to muddy the waters further by choosing how they present said stats in order to further their own agenda by use of a smoke and mirrors presentation.

    The more salacious the presentation, the more suspect the content, and the more worth of searching out their motives and agenda.
    Marduke - Solitaire...I've seen matches which are brighter AND have a longer runtime. 光陰矢の如し

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    nothing gets by YOU guys...
    originally cpf member #14 write me at gmail.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Would that put us on the same side, or opposites?
    Marduke - Solitaire...I've seen matches which are brighter AND have a longer runtime. 光陰矢の如し

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kaichu dento View Post
    I can follow your reasoning, but it's almost worse with a populace churning out graduates who can't even read taking their daily allowance of stats verbally and accepting their definition as stated without bothering to research and confirm on their own...
    IIRC it was over two decades ago that West Point established a remedial reading program for freshmen because they could no longer fill their rolls with students capable of jumping straight into their program. Yeah, West Point.

    Bear with me for a bit. In 1961 my brother was enrolled into one of the military academies and I still recall what a big deal it was -- at our house, anyway. My brother had to get a Congressional Appointment to get into that school. This was the only way that my folks would ever be able to afford an education like that. Fast-forward 20 or 30 years. In spite of the fact that the military academies only have a very limited number of slots each year AND there has traditionally been intense competition for them -- today our schools do not produce students capable of stepping into their curriculum.

    On another level the whole word vs image thing that I touched on above is really huge, IMO. It is very easy to pump crap into people's minds using images (TV, etc.) In word based societies the the images (read conclusions) are based on words (as building blocks laying a foundation for our own images.)

    Also note that it is nearly impossible to change an opinion that was formed as a result of exposure to images. Words cannot compete at all. People who base their opinions on the images fed to them by others actually don't even know why they hold their beliefs because they have never thought any of it through.

    I think that our society's use of imagery in place of the word (absolutely no religious connotations) is perhaps a far greater engine for change than is generally realized. Creepy.
    Last edited by Sub_Umbra; 11-20-2011 at 12:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub_Umbra View Post
    On another level the whole word vs image thing that I touched on above is really huge, IMO. It is very easy to pump crap into people's minds using images (TV, etc.) In word based societies the the images (read conclusions) are based on words (as building blocks laying a foundation for our own images.)

    Also note that it is nearly impossible to change an opinion that was formed as a result of exposure to images. Words cannot compete at all. People who base their opinions on the images fed to them by others actually don't even know why they hold their beliefs because they have never thought any of it through.

    I think that our society's use of imagery in place of the word (absolutely no religious connotations) is perhaps a far greater engine for change than is generally realized. Creepy.
    I agree with everything you've posted here, but the worst part of it all is that it doesn't have to be so. The enabling tool in play is indoctrination whereby we have education based on teaching independent thought processes which will allow an individual to understand when what they're being sold is not based on solid logical/realistic premises. Some of the individuals to blame are not doing so deliberately but out of their own misunderstanding of what constitutes proper education and placing higher value on learned absolutes as opposed to the the ability to reason things out.
    The truly bad ones are the ones who actually know what it is they're doing, and make the conscious choice to preclude the growth of independent thought in order to allow the type of control you're talking about. Creepy is one good word for it.
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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    tell me you have heard of Marshal McLuhan,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_medium_is_the_message

    "..Likewise, the message of a newscast about a heinous crime may be less about the individual news story itself — the content — and more about the change in public attitude towards crime that the newscast engenders by the fact that such crimes are in effect being brought into the home to watch over dinner..."
    originally cpf member #14 write me at gmail.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Bingo!

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kaichu dento View Post
    I agree with everything you've posted here, but the worst part of it all is that it doesn't have to be so. The enabling tool in play is indoctrination whereby we have education based on teaching independent thought processes which will allow an individual to understand when what they're being sold is not based on solid logical/realistic premises.
    That's the problem in a nutshell-namely that many individuals accept as fact whatever agenda the news organizations want them to because they're incapable of thinking on their own. I remember in grade school one of my teachers actually had a lesson on advertising, basically showing that a lot of it is misleading. For example, a child might see a toy do something in a TV commercial which it will almost never do in real life. The commercial might require 50 takes to get it right. I found this lesson very enlightening because a major source of my frustration as a child was having toys which never did what they claimed to. Nowadays with big corporations solidly in control any teacher telling their students how to examine commercials critically will likely lose their job. And this exact inability of the younger generations to examine advertising critically explains the plethora of junk products on the market, and more importantly the huge number of products which essentially provide an ongoing revenue stream to those who produce them (i.e. cell phones, ink jet printers, throw-away batteries, automobiles to name a few). The average person simply never questions either the need for such items, or better yet, how they can accomplish the same thing without giving x amount of money each month to big corporations.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962 View Post
    The average person simply never questions either the need for such items
    You're in the wrong country for rational analysis of consumerism..

    Author Joseph Chilton Pierce argues that because of the non-stop influence of television and technology in general, American children are neurologically stunted, resulting in 80% becoming "uneducable". This came off as complete hyperbole to me until I got to college, and saw how many students were unable to type coherent sentences, and how the majority were not only unable to analyze problems independently, but were averse to it.

    "O Dream-America, was civilization's quest to end in obesity and trivia?" - Salman Rushdie

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    ...because of the non-stop influence of television and technology in general, American children are neurologically stunted, resulting in 80% becoming "uneducable". This came off as complete hyperbole to me until I got to college, and saw how many students were unable to type coherent sentences, and how the majority were not only unable to analyze problems independently, but were averse to it.
    It's incredibly disheartening to meet so many bright individuals incapable of independent thought, but it's not just television and technology, but a teaching system based on passing on knowledge as opposed to instructions towards intelligence and honesty in thought processes, removing self from equations leading to impartial truth.
    The system which brought us self-esteem based education brought narcissism to the fore, self-instructing many to refuse to acknowledge any thought which challenges their own superiority.
    Marduke - Solitaire...I've seen matches which are brighter AND have a longer runtime. 光陰矢の如し

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kaichu dento View Post
    ...The system which brought us self-esteem based education brought narcissism to the fore, self-instructing many to refuse to acknowledge any thought which challenges their own superiority.
    Oh yeah. That's insightful. I never thought of it just that way before. I started to notice in the 60s that by and large teens were overwhelmingly convinced that their generation was the smartest that ever lived. It is a belief that most of the Boomers still have.

    It amazes me to this day.
    Last edited by Sub_Umbra; 11-20-2011 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub_Umbra View Post
    Oh yeah. That's insightful. I never thought of it just that way before. I started to notice in the 60s that by and large teens were overwhelmingly convinced that their generation was the smartest that ever lived. It is a belief that most of the Boomers still have.

    It amazes me to this day.
    That's funny you would mention that as I remember back in the 70's and 80's finding much to dislike in the sitcoms which proved to us what we always knew to be true - kids were much, much smarter than adults, and not by coincidence, the only smart adults were non-traditional ones.

    When I get into discussions with these self-admiring types I like to ask if they believe they are smarter or less so than last year. Invariably they think they're much smarter, and will gladly enumerate the ways in which it's so. Then I ask them why they think that they can become smarter and more experienced year by year, but believe that everyone else is getting more and more imbecilic. I'm generally answered first with a confused thoughtful look and many times an outburst of laughter as they realize how ridiculous the concept.

    I don't want to win an argument with them, but I do hope they will learn to think, form logical conclusions tempered with reality checks and learn to empty their overflowing cup enough to learn through their own eyes and ears without reaching prejudicial conclusions simply because they taste better.
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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    The most efficient way to sell someone something is to tell them your product confirms what they've been thinking and will show that they've been right all along. So in a consumerist society, where people are viewed as consumers who need a product regardless of their age, teens must be provided with content that tells them their worldview is absolutely correct - adults are idiots, schoolwork is dumb, and you really are at the center of a universe where your thoughts and feelings would make you famous if only people understood you. These are the themes for any teen television show, internet video, or media in general. Parents and teachers are completely outgunned as the few minutes a day of serious one-on-one interaction they have with teens is overwhelmed by the non-stop message of "you're right" coming from every other source around them.

    Meanwhile, teens from other less sales-centered nations are told to study hard for their future, be globally minded, pay attention to the advice of your elders..

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by StarHalo View Post
    The most efficient way to sell someone something is to tell them your product confirms what they've been thinking and will show that they've been right all along. So in a consumerist society, where people are viewed as consumers who need a product regardless of their age, teens must be provided with content that tells them their worldview is absolutely correct - adults are idiots, schoolwork is dumb, and you really are at the center of a universe where your thoughts and feelings would make you famous if only people understood you. These are the themes for any teen television show, internet video, or media in general. Parents and teachers are completely outgunned as the few minutes a day of serious one-on-one interaction they have with teens is overwhelmed by the non-stop message of "you're right" coming from every other source around them.

    Meanwhile, teens from other less sales-centered nations are told to study hard for their future, be globally minded, pay attention to the advice of your elders..
    The more irresponsible, the more free time with which to find out how much they lie at the center of the universe, while the boring, responsible members of society are busy working.

    Unfortunately many of the parents and teachers have been re-educated so well that they help perpetuate an un-teachable segment of society and it's only made easier with the dissolution of the nuclear family unit.
    Marduke - Solitaire...I've seen matches which are brighter AND have a longer runtime. 光陰矢の如し

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    Throughout history, governments have formed a pattern.... as they [governments] get larger, they get less efficient and cause problems. Here is a link to add to the discussion: http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/...g-the-economy/

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    Default Re: Lying With Statistics thread

    As a reminder, CPF does provide for provocative political discussion, volatile religious discussion and other heated controversial subjects. We do so through the board we refer to as our Underground Wine Cellar.

    Turning this thread toward controversial political discussion and references, or posting commentary that discourages participation from those trying to stay within the expected "light discussions" of our Cafe, will greatly increase the chances of a termination of the discussion.

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