Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

I have recently witnessed multiple WTS threads in which the seller asks you to send the money as a gift instead of as a purchase.

I guess this is risky as a buyer, you have no recourse if the sale or delivery goes sour.

In my opinion, Paypal provides a service and deserves the appropriate share of the transferred funds. Using a "gift" for a sale is abuse of the system, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

If we circumvent the established arrangement, are we no better than the people who download music illegally, or the people who leave the grocery store paying for 2 items when they really carried out 3.

I looked around the web to find out if others are commenting on this topic. I didn't find an appropriate discussion. I figured the cafe is a good place to find some clarity.

:tinfoil:

What's the difference between "gift" and the other options? They don't take a paypal fee for it even if the recipient has premium acct?

Paypal gift, if funded by bank or available funds, results in a completely fee-free transaction, if I read correctly.

I won't point out anybody's particular thread. You might find it interesting to see the following search results:

http://www.google.com/search?q=paypal+gift&sitesearch=cpfmarketplace.com

I probably wouldn't do it. Not that I would want to offend someone on here but its just that there is protection in doing it the right way.

I agree. I was thinking about buying a D20 that I saw listed until I got to that part of the post.

There was a thread showing how to pay thru the "payment owed" option. I think this is similar to using the "gift" option. I commented that this would probably not provide any protection for the buyer while saving the seller the fees. And paypal would probably suspend your account if they found out your using it for purchases. paypal provides a service and if you want to use it then i think they deserve the fees.

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=242394

I think PayPal should and will find out about all these accounts and terminate them, or eliminate this option. It is clearly an abuse.

Something else that irks me lately with some of the WTS threads is that folks are stating "add X% for CC".

PayPal charges the same fees for Bank/Debit and CC funded transactions now.

I have no problem incurring PayPal fees when folks pay me for something I am selling - it's part of using that service.

Any items I may be interesting in buying that request payment via PP Gift will get not get my money.

Not sure what you guys up in the arms about. Paypal used to have a free option for purchase but not anymore, so now people use the new free option, no different from the old CC+4%, which is also against paypal rule. The ones who choose to use it made the decision to give up buyer protection, it's their decision not yours. If YOU want to use the commercial payment offer to cover the fees, I'm sure the seller wouldn't mind, just like before the change when you are paying with CC.

By the way you don't have to choose gift, any of the option on personal tab would be fee free if you use bank funded paying a non-premium user.

jzmtl said:

Not sure what you guys up in the arms about. Paypal used to have a free option for purchase but not anymore, so now people use the new free option, no different from the old CC+4%, which is also against paypal rule. The ones who choose to use it made the decision to give up buyer protection, it's their decision not yours. If YOU want to use the commercial payment offer to cover the fees, I'm sure the seller wouldn't mind, just like before the change when you are paying with CC.

By the way you don't have to choose gift, any of the option on personal tab would be fee free if you use bank funded paying a non-premium user.

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I think we are "up in arms" because it doesn't seem right. I didn't know that it was also against PayPal's rules for a buyer to charge extra for credit card payments.

Just for the heck of it, because I have complied with the extra CC fees people charge in numerous sales threads, I called PayPal and asked them in general terms what is their policy on these matters--to take it out of this 'gray zone.'

Suffice it to say that when PP recently launched the personal payment tab options this was not to be used for sale of merchandise, and they are actively going after cases that do this. They are closely monitoring people who are getting payments in this manner for merchandise and locking or closing their accounts pending investigations.

The main point that people need to be aware of as buyers is if you use the personal tab options, you cannot file a dispute, and have absolutely no protection...not even if the package gets lost in the mail.

It is up to the buyer if they wish to report sellers abusing this feature, and that PP told me they will take action against them for either the added 4% addon, or requesting payment from personal tab from buyer to avoid fees.

Black Rose said:

Something else that irks me lately with some of the WTS threads is that folks are stating "add X% for CC".

PayPal charges the same fees for Bank/Debit and CC funded transactions now.

I have no problem incurring PayPal fees when folks pay me for something I am selling - it's part of using that service.

Any items I may be interesting in buying that request payment via PP Gift will get not get my money.

Click to expand...

Black Rose is correct. It is and has been completely illegal and against Paypal TOS to charge a surcharge for credit card payments. People know better and still do it here. Would you like it if Sears charged you 4% to pay with your Mastercard? Oh wait, they do, but it's factored into their prices. Hint hint.

Also, remember there are Personal accounts and Premier accounts. On the latter, the fee charged is the same for cash or credit transactions. On the former, you cannot accept credit transactions but you can accept cash and if you accept cash there is no fee charged. Black Rose - are you saying that personal accounts now are being charged for cash as well?

It's funny people haev an issue with this new scam sellers are using but have no problems with the practice of the 4% surcharge for Paypal transactions that has been going on for years. Offering the ability to pay by CC is a service to the seller as much as it is to the buyer. Some people may not have $500 cash lying around for a McGizmo and they might not otherwise buy it if Paypal CC was not an option. [Fiscal responsibility issues aside]

Thanks for the info, and the "extra credit" research too.

sygyzy said:

Black Rose is correct. It is and has been completely illegal and against Paypal TOS to charge a surcharge for credit card payments. People know better and still do it here. Would you like it if Sears charged you 4% to pay with your Mastercard? Oh wait, they do, but it's factored into their prices. Hint hint.

Also, remember there are Personal accounts and Premier accounts. On the latter, the fee charged is the same for cash or credit transactions. On the former, you cannot accept credit transactions but you can accept cash and if you accept cash there is no fee charged. Black Rose - are you saying that personal accounts now are being charged for cash as well?

It's funny people haev an issue with this new scam sellers are using but have no problems with the practice of the 4% surcharge for Paypal transactions that has been going on for years. Offering the ability to pay by CC is a service to the seller as much as it is to the buyer. Some people may not have $500 cash lying around for a McGizmo and they might not otherwise buy it if Paypal CC was not an option. [Fiscal responsibility issues aside]

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It's not illegal, I'm sure paypal would love to make it that way but they are not making the law yet.

Paypal just changed their whole fee system and you get charged regardless, that's the whole point of this thread. And this is not a "scam" as you are claiming, just people trying to avoid paypal fees.

Please go read the new paypal policy before making any further accusations.

LuxLuthor said:

I think we are "up in arms" because it doesn't seem right. I didn't know that it was also against PayPal's rules for a buyer to charge extra for credit card payments.

Just for the heck of it, because I have complied with the extra CC fees people charge in numerous sales threads, I called PayPal and asked them in general terms what is their policy on these matters--to take it out of this 'gray zone.'

Suffice it to say that when PP recently launched the personal payment tab options this was not to be used for sale of merchandise, and they are actively going after cases that do this. They are closely monitoring people who are getting payments in this manner for merchandise and locking or closing their accounts pending investigations.

The main point that people need to be aware of as buyers is if you use the personal tab options, you cannot file a dispute, and have absolutely no protection...not even if the package gets lost in the mail.

It is up to the buyer if they wish to report sellers abusing this feature, and that PP told me they will take action against them for either the added 4% addon, or requesting payment from personal tab from buyer to avoid fees.

Click to expand...

It still comes back to my point it's a decision between seller and buyer, if they chose to do it that way why are you so against it?

Originally Posted by LuxLuthor
I think we are "up in arms" because it doesn't seem right. I didn't know that it was also against PayPal's rules for a buyer to charge extra for credit card payments.

Just for the heck of it, because I have complied with the extra CC fees people charge in numerous sales threads, I called PayPal and asked them in general terms what is their policy on these matters--to take it out of this 'gray zone.'

Suffice it to say that when PP recently launched the personal payment tab options this was not to be used for sale of merchandise, and they are actively going after cases that do this. They are closely monitoring people who are getting payments in this manner for merchandise and locking or closing their accounts pending investigations.

The main point that people need to be aware of as buyers is if you use the personal tab options, you cannot file a dispute, and have absolutely no protection...not even if the package gets lost in the mail.

It is up to the buyer if they wish to report sellers abusing this feature, and that PP told me they will take action against them for either the added 4% addon, or requesting payment from personal tab from buyer to avoid fees.

Click to expand...

jzmtl said:

It still comes back to my point it's a decision between seller and buyer, if they chose to do it that way why are you so against it?

Click to expand...

....because of the spirit of the rules and the fact that service is being rendered that the servicing party fully intends to make a commission on. Lux made it pretty clear that PP did not intend for the personal tab options to become a way for PayPal's service to be used freely during merchandise purchases. Just because it's possible to exploit PP out of their intended profit doesn't mean that it's at all dependent upon buyer/seller agreements.

Interesting. I think the word should get around to those who are requesting the added 4% for credit card paypal purchases, as I think that most of them do not know it is against paypal policy. I personally think that paypal is overcharging for credit paypal payments, and the fee should be paid by the buyer, not the seller. I currently have the premium account and am charged for all paypal payments I receive, credit or cash. I might just drop the premium and go to cash only. This may preclude some potential buyers, but I at least will get getter value for the product I am selling.

Bill

Patriot said:

....because of the spirit of the rules and the fact that service is being rendered that the servicing party fully intends to make a commission on. Lux made it pretty clear that PP did not intend for the personal tab options to become a way for PayPal's service to be used freely during merchandise purchases. Just because it's possible to exploit PP out of their intended profit doesn't mean that it's at all dependent upon buyer/seller agreements.

Click to expand...

But if a buyer and seller chose to do that what's it got to do with anyone else other than them? Spirit of the rules and laws are being broken every second, I just don't see why this particular matter is anymore significant, especially consider nobody said a thing about the paypal + x% practice for years?

Buyer protection? What protection? Has anyone actually ever got their money back from PP if the seller sent the wrong/different item?

I guess I'm ignorant, I didn't give it a thought to check the gift box. As far as the charging extra 4% for CC payments, I have done it before, not to rip anybody off but I was just trying to recoup my fee. With some of the lower priced items for example say $20-30 even forty dollar range, by the time you buy an envelope and pay postage and then pay the fee it almost wasn't worth the effort to sell. Nobody's fault in particular, just how it is. Since I found out about it being against PP policy I have tried to make more adjustment in this area. Haven't found a perfect solution though. I agree with BullzeyeBill and I may drop the premium account too.

I am all for buyer protection (caveat emptor was back when men were men and sheep afraid of them!) but how about seller protection? There are some real wingnuts out there who are buyers, and who or what protects the seller from them? :nana:

I recently received funds from a CPF member and he mentioned that they were provided as a gift. Well cool because prior to that, I had mailed him a gift of a light. I didn't request this and I didn't realize that I could even receive fee free funds with my account. Well damn me! I should probably be shot at sunrise and some good citizen should get Pay Pal on my case immediately? Ignorance is no excuse!! I should have denied the funds and then not have the money but at least I would be doing the right thing.

Cool, could you send someone a gift payment and then turn them in and have their account seized?

On a lighter note, I suspect Pay Pal is doing just fine in these times of economic slumps and many loosing their jobs. I do appreciate the service they provide and I have no plans of denying them their toll. I can rest well knowing that Pay Pal protects the consumers and that the consumers protect Pay Pal.



IMHO, PayPal has taps on all sorts of revenue streams and it is in their better interest to insure that funds travel in one direction. They are tapped into me and they provide a service I am willing to pay for. I don't consider this fee as going to buyer protection but if that is covered as well, fine. If it were only for buyer protection and a buyer was willing to wave such protection then I am not clear why Pay Pal should have any claim or cause to call foul? :shrug:

Most of my business is simply none of their business and vise versa. Hopefully the overlap is in an agreed upon manner and with no unseen strings attached. (all that fine print is something to keep one awake at nights about....)

"Most of my business is simply none of their business" Quoting McGizmo. Amen to that sir!