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Thread: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

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    Flashaholic* EngrPaul's Avatar
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    Default Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    I have recently witnessed multiple WTS threads in which the seller asks you to send the money as a gift instead of as a purchase.

    I guess this is risky as a buyer, you have no recourse if the sale or delivery goes sour.

    In my opinion, Paypal provides a service and deserves the appropriate share of the transferred funds. Using a "gift" for a sale is abuse of the system, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

    If we circumvent the established arrangement, are we no better than the people who download music illegally, or the people who leave the grocery store paying for 2 items when they really carried out 3.

    I looked around the web to find out if others are commenting on this topic. I didn't find an appropriate discussion. I figured the cafe is a good place to find some clarity.


  2. #2

    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    What's the difference between "gift" and the other options? They don't take a paypal fee for it even if the recipient has premium acct?

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    Flashaholic* EngrPaul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Paypal gift, if funded by bank or available funds, results in a completely fee-free transaction, if I read correctly.

    I won't point out anybody's particular thread. You might find it interesting to see the following search results:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=paypa...arketplace.com
    Last edited by EngrPaul; 09-27-2009 at 05:10 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    I probably wouldn't do it. Not that I would want to offend someone on here but its just that there is protection in doing it the right way.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    I agree. I was thinking about buying a D20 that I saw listed until I got to that part of the post.

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    Flashaholic* paintballdad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    There was a thread showing how to pay thru the "payment owed" option. I think this is similar to using the "gift" option. I commented that this would probably not provide any protection for the buyer while saving the seller the fees. And paypal would probably suspend your account if they found out your using it for purchases. paypal provides a service and if you want to use it then i think they deserve the fees.

    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=242394

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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    I think PayPal should and will find out about all these accounts and terminate them, or eliminate this option. It is clearly an abuse.

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    Flashaholic* Black Rose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Something else that irks me lately with some of the WTS threads is that folks are stating "add X% for CC".

    PayPal charges the same fees for Bank/Debit and CC funded transactions now.

    I have no problem incurring PayPal fees when folks pay me for something I am selling - it's part of using that service.

    Any items I may be interesting in buying that request payment via PP Gift will get not get my money.

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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Not sure what you guys up in the arms about. Paypal used to have a free option for purchase but not anymore, so now people use the new free option, no different from the old CC+4%, which is also against paypal rule. The ones who choose to use it made the decision to give up buyer protection, it's their decision not yours. If YOU want to use the commercial payment offer to cover the fees, I'm sure the seller wouldn't mind, just like before the change when you are paying with CC.

    By the way you don't have to choose gift, any of the option on personal tab would be fee free if you use bank funded paying a non-premium user.

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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
    Not sure what you guys up in the arms about. Paypal used to have a free option for purchase but not anymore, so now people use the new free option, no different from the old CC+4%, which is also against paypal rule. The ones who choose to use it made the decision to give up buyer protection, it's their decision not yours. If YOU want to use the commercial payment offer to cover the fees, I'm sure the seller wouldn't mind, just like before the change when you are paying with CC.

    By the way you don't have to choose gift, any of the option on personal tab would be fee free if you use bank funded paying a non-premium user.
    I think we are "up in arms" because it doesn't seem right. I didn't know that it was also against PayPal's rules for a buyer to charge extra for credit card payments.

    Just for the heck of it, because I have complied with the extra CC fees people charge in numerous sales threads, I called PayPal and asked them in general terms what is their policy on these matters--to take it out of this 'gray zone.'

    Suffice it to say that when PP recently launched the personal payment tab options this was not to be used for sale of merchandise, and they are actively going after cases that do this. They are closely monitoring people who are getting payments in this manner for merchandise and locking or closing their accounts pending investigations.

    The main point that people need to be aware of as buyers is if you use the personal tab options, you cannot file a dispute, and have absolutely no protection...not even if the package gets lost in the mail.

    It is up to the buyer if they wish to report sellers abusing this feature, and that PP told me they will take action against them for either the added 4% addon, or requesting payment from personal tab from buyer to avoid fees.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Rose View Post
    Something else that irks me lately with some of the WTS threads is that folks are stating "add X% for CC".

    PayPal charges the same fees for Bank/Debit and CC funded transactions now.

    I have no problem incurring PayPal fees when folks pay me for something I am selling - it's part of using that service.

    Any items I may be interesting in buying that request payment via PP Gift will get not get my money.
    Black Rose is correct. It is and has been completely illegal and against Paypal TOS to charge a surcharge for credit card payments. People know better and still do it here. Would you like it if Sears charged you 4% to pay with your Mastercard? Oh wait, they do, but it's factored into their prices. Hint hint.

    Also, remember there are Personal accounts and Premier accounts. On the latter, the fee charged is the same for cash or credit transactions. On the former, you cannot accept credit transactions but you can accept cash and if you accept cash there is no fee charged. Black Rose - are you saying that personal accounts now are being charged for cash as well?

    It's funny people haev an issue with this new scam sellers are using but have no problems with the practice of the 4% surcharge for Paypal transactions that has been going on for years. Offering the ability to pay by CC is a service to the seller as much as it is to the buyer. Some people may not have $500 cash lying around for a McGizmo and they might not otherwise buy it if Paypal CC was not an option. [Fiscal responsibility issues aside]
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    Flashaholic* EngrPaul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Thanks for the info, and the "extra credit" research too.

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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by sygyzy View Post
    Black Rose is correct. It is and has been completely illegal and against Paypal TOS to charge a surcharge for credit card payments. People know better and still do it here. Would you like it if Sears charged you 4% to pay with your Mastercard? Oh wait, they do, but it's factored into their prices. Hint hint.

    Also, remember there are Personal accounts and Premier accounts. On the latter, the fee charged is the same for cash or credit transactions. On the former, you cannot accept credit transactions but you can accept cash and if you accept cash there is no fee charged. Black Rose - are you saying that personal accounts now are being charged for cash as well?

    It's funny people haev an issue with this new scam sellers are using but have no problems with the practice of the 4% surcharge for Paypal transactions that has been going on for years. Offering the ability to pay by CC is a service to the seller as much as it is to the buyer. Some people may not have $500 cash lying around for a McGizmo and they might not otherwise buy it if Paypal CC was not an option. [Fiscal responsibility issues aside]
    It's not illegal, I'm sure paypal would love to make it that way but they are not making the law yet.

    Paypal just changed their whole fee system and you get charged regardless, that's the whole point of this thread. And this is not a "scam" as you are claiming, just people trying to avoid paypal fees.

    Please go read the new paypal policy before making any further accusations.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    I think we are "up in arms" because it doesn't seem right. I didn't know that it was also against PayPal's rules for a buyer to charge extra for credit card payments.

    Just for the heck of it, because I have complied with the extra CC fees people charge in numerous sales threads, I called PayPal and asked them in general terms what is their policy on these matters--to take it out of this 'gray zone.'

    Suffice it to say that when PP recently launched the personal payment tab options this was not to be used for sale of merchandise, and they are actively going after cases that do this. They are closely monitoring people who are getting payments in this manner for merchandise and locking or closing their accounts pending investigations.

    The main point that people need to be aware of as buyers is if you use the personal tab options, you cannot file a dispute, and have absolutely no protection...not even if the package gets lost in the mail.

    It is up to the buyer if they wish to report sellers abusing this feature, and that PP told me they will take action against them for either the added 4% addon, or requesting payment from personal tab from buyer to avoid fees.
    It still comes back to my point it's a decision between seller and buyer, if they chose to do it that way why are you so against it?
    Last edited by jzmtl; 09-28-2009 at 06:29 PM.

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    *Flashaholic* Patriot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?


    Originally Posted by LuxLuthor
    I think we are "up in arms" because it doesn't seem right. I didn't know that it was also against PayPal's rules for a buyer to charge extra for credit card payments.

    Just for the heck of it, because I have complied with the extra CC fees people charge in numerous sales threads, I called PayPal and asked them in general terms what is their policy on these matters--to take it out of this 'gray zone.'

    Suffice it to say that when PP recently launched the personal payment tab options this was not to be used for sale of merchandise, and they are actively going after cases that do this. They are closely monitoring people who are getting payments in this manner for merchandise and locking or closing their accounts pending investigations.

    The main point that people need to be aware of as buyers is if you use the personal tab options, you cannot file a dispute, and have absolutely no protection...not even if the package gets lost in the mail.

    It is up to the buyer if they wish to report sellers abusing this feature, and that PP told me they will take action against them for either the added 4% addon, or requesting payment from personal tab from buyer to avoid fees.
    Quote Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
    It still comes back to my point it's a decision between seller and buyer, if they chose to do it that way why are you so against it?




    ....because of the spirit of the rules and the fact that service is being rendered that the servicing party fully intends to make a commission on. Lux made it pretty clear that PP did not intend for the personal tab options to become a way for PayPal's service to be used freely during merchandise purchases. Just because it's possible to exploit PP out of their intended profit doesn't mean that it's at all dependent upon buyer/seller agreements.

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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Interesting. I think the word should get around to those who are requesting the added 4% for credit card paypal purchases, as I think that most of them do not know it is against paypal policy. I personally think that paypal is overcharging for credit paypal payments, and the fee should be paid by the buyer, not the seller. I currently have the premium account and am charged for all paypal payments I receive, credit or cash. I might just drop the premium and go to cash only. This may preclude some potential buyers, but I at least will get getter value for the product I am selling.

    Bill

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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot View Post
    ....because of the spirit of the rules and the fact that service is being rendered that the servicing party fully intends to make a commission on. Lux made it pretty clear that PP did not intend for the personal tab options to become a way for PayPal's service to be used freely during merchandise purchases. Just because it's possible to exploit PP out of their intended profit doesn't mean that it's at all dependent upon buyer/seller agreements.

    But if a buyer and seller chose to do that what's it got to do with anyone else other than them? Spirit of the rules and laws are being broken every second, I just don't see why this particular matter is anymore significant, especially consider nobody said a thing about the paypal + x% practice for years?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Buyer protection? What protection? Has anyone actually ever got their money back from PP if the seller sent the wrong/different item?

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    Flashaholic* MarNav1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    I guess I'm ignorant, I didn't give it a thought to check the gift box. As far as the charging extra 4% for CC payments, I have done it before, not to rip anybody off but I was just trying to recoup my fee. With some of the lower priced items for example say $20-30 even forty dollar range, by the time you buy an envelope and pay postage and then pay the fee it almost wasn't worth the effort to sell. Nobody's fault in particular, just how it is. Since I found out about it being against PP policy I have tried to make more adjustment in this area. Haven't found a perfect solution though. I agree with BullzeyeBill and I may drop the premium account too.
    Last edited by MarNav1; 09-28-2009 at 08:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    I am all for buyer protection (caveat emptor was back when men were men and sheep afraid of them!) but how about seller protection? There are some real wingnuts out there who are buyers, and who or what protects the seller from them?

    I recently received funds from a CPF member and he mentioned that they were provided as a gift. Well cool because prior to that, I had mailed him a gift of a light. I didn't request this and I didn't realize that I could even receive fee free funds with my account. Well damn me! I should probably be shot at sunrise and some good citizen should get Pay Pal on my case immediately? Ignorance is no excuse!! I should have denied the funds and then not have the money but at least I would be doing the right thing.

    Cool, could you send someone a gift payment and then turn them in and have their account seized?

    On a lighter note, I suspect Pay Pal is doing just fine in these times of economic slumps and many loosing their jobs. I do appreciate the service they provide and I have no plans of denying them their toll. I can rest well knowing that Pay Pal protects the consumers and that the consumers protect Pay Pal.



    IMHO, PayPal has taps on all sorts of revenue streams and it is in their better interest to insure that funds travel in one direction. They are tapped into me and they provide a service I am willing to pay for. I don't consider this fee as going to buyer protection but if that is covered as well, fine. If it were only for buyer protection and a buyer was willing to wave such protection then I am not clear why Pay Pal should have any claim or cause to call foul?

    Most of my business is simply none of their business and vise versa. Hopefully the overlap is in an agreed upon manner and with no unseen strings attached. (all that fine print is something to keep one awake at nights about....)
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    "Most of my business is simply none of their business" Quoting McGizmo. Amen to that sir!
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
    It's not illegal, I'm sure paypal would love to make it that way but they are not making the law yet.

    Paypal just changed their whole fee system and you get charged regardless, that's the whole point of this thread. And this is not a "scam" as you are claiming, just people trying to avoid paypal fees.

    Please go read the new paypal policy before making any further accusations.



    It still comes back to my point it's a decision between seller and buyer, if they chose to do it that way why are you so against it?
    Please don't lecture me on what is legal or not. Both eBay and Paypal (who are one and the same) state it is illegal to charge surcharges. In fact, years ago eBay cut down on this by making it illegal to state a surcharge in an auction, or similarly, offering a "cash" discount.

    What's right and wrong does not change simply because you say so. People are just "trying to avoid fees"? Maybe the same way a thief tries to avoid paying for a laptop they steal? Give me a break.

    What's confusing to me is you said yourself in your first post of this topic that the 4% surcharge is against Paypal rules, now you are reversing your opinion.
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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
    But if a buyer and seller chose to do that what's it got to do with anyone else other than them? Spirit of the rules and laws are being broken every second, I just don't see why this particular matter is anymore significant, especially consider nobody said a thing about the paypal + x% practice for years?
    There is a certain validity to your logic, but your post above is the first time I ever heard it is a violation of PayPal rules to tack on a 4% CC fee for a seller--that it can lead to their account being closed if reported. It was what prompted my phone call to PayPal.

    The validity of your logic may not rise to the level of illegality as say a blackjack dealer colluding with a player and splitting the profits, but that doesn't make it a morally right thing to do once there is an awareness of it violating the terms of your paypal account.

    I sincerely believe that like me, many sellers who asked for an extra fee for CC payments, did not know it was in violation of PP rules and could lead to their account being terminated. According to the escalated service person I spoke with, all it takes is a single report of this being done that can be verified for an account to be cancelled...and there are many many sales threads that have their + CC fee policy posted for all to see.

    Sellers need to include the 4% fee in their price. If they get some cash account payments without a fee, then so be it. That's not a violation of the PP rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by KuKu427 View Post
    Buyer protection? What protection? Has anyone actually ever got their money back from PP if the seller sent the wrong/different item?
    Yes. Four times to date. Two from Ebay purchases. Full refunds, one of which was $2,800

    McG--seller protection is a valid issue, but yet another cost of doing business. Your best protection is using a certified, insured, signed delivery method. For the prices of your items (which are justifiable), I would only sell that way. I had one (non-CPF) instance of a buyer non-delivery claim filed against me, and I prevailed because of a track record history with PayPal, and shipping documentation.

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    Flashaholic* csshih's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    Yes. Four times to date. Two from Ebay purchases. Full refunds, one of which was $2,800

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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by sygyzy View Post
    Please don't lecture me on what is legal or not. Both eBay and Paypal (who are one and the same) state it is illegal to charge surcharges. In fact, years ago eBay cut down on this by making it illegal to state a surcharge in an auction, or similarly, offering a "cash" discount.

    What's right and wrong does not change simply because you say so. People are just "trying to avoid fees"? Maybe the same way a thief tries to avoid paying for a laptop they steal? Give me a break.

    What's confusing to me is you said yourself in your first post of this topic that the 4% surcharge is against Paypal rules, now you are reversing your opinion.

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    Last time I checked paypal does not make the law yet. I have no idea where you read that I said anything is right or wrong, or reverse anything. Don't putting words in my mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    There is a certain validity to your logic, but your post above is the first time I ever heard it is a violation of PayPal rules to tack on a 4% CC fee for a seller--that it can lead to their account being closed if reported. It was what prompted my phone call to PayPal.

    The validity of your logic may not rise to the level of illegality as say a blackjack dealer colluding with a player and splitting the profits, but that doesn't make it a morally right thing to do once there is an awareness of it violating the terms of your paypal account.
    I guess we just see things differently. For me it's simply a case of "none of your (or my) business", there are too many more important things to worry about this, for me anyway.
    Last edited by jzmtl; 09-28-2009 at 11:02 PM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by KuKu427 View Post
    Buyer protection? What protection? Has anyone actually ever got their money back from PP if the seller sent the wrong/different item?
    I did. Purchased a laptop hard drive off ebay and recieved the wrong drive of significantly lower capacity. I had zero communication after purchase with the seller despite trying. I had zero communication when I reported the problem to them - I even offered to maybe make a deal and keep the wrong drive for a partial refund. I got nothing when I started the Paypal process. I basically got nothing out of the seller but the wrong item shipped almost 2 weeks after the auction closed and negative comments on Ebay. I'm "ebay scum" by the way.

    I did get my money back from Paypal though.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    ...and to the meat of the thread.

    I didn't have a big issue with buyer's and sellers agreeing on a CC surcharge despite it being a violation of the paypal agreement. The buyer knows up front, the seller doesn't need to pad their price to everyone to cover possible paypal fees, and paypal actually made a little bit more money because they charged their fee out of the bigger amount. I doubt the practice is actually illegal in my area since when gas spiked up towards $4 a gallon last year there were gas stations switching to separate cash and credit pricing on gas. With the fee structure changing I was surprised it was still common in the marketplace. Shows how often I shop there - I think I have made 3 deals there in my entire time in CPF.

    I would have a big problem if someone asked me to send payment as a gift. One I lose buyer protection. The practice is only slightly up in buyer safety from "send an envelop full of cash" as the only payment option. Call me untrusting but it's probably not going to happen. Two it's asking me to actively lie in a financial transaction with Paypal. That lie actually costs Paypal money under their new fee structure. So I am lying to a party in a business dealing to cheat them out of money they have coming in the deal. I'm no lawyer but that sounds suspiciously like something that is illegal here. It certainly doesn't seem very ethical.

    I won't mark it as a "gift." Putting that on a listing will make me pass.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    I think the main point of this thread is if this practice of paying as "gift" is ethical or not, and if it's ok to to CPFM community. Ethical? Definitely not since it's against PP rules. But I believe many here doesn't really care about it. Just like the "add 4% for CC payment". Those that doesn't have that in the text of their sales thread doesn't mean they're not doing it. They're just smart enough to include it in the sales price in the first place.

    The bottomline here is if I don't like what I see on a sales thread, I just don't buy it. Now if someone feels strongly about that practice and you have enough time in your hands (and not enough things to worry about), then watch every sales thread and report it to paypal once you see it... ;-)

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    It's useful to look at the whole electronic payment system and see what one might think is a "reasonable" fee for use, and what you get in return, both as a seller and buyer. I have looked at this pretty hard, as I had some interest in accepting credit card payments, and pp is one method of doing that. It is of course useless if you are a large merchant, but useful for small merchants.

    Buyer side protection

    As a buyer, clearly you are more protected in a transaction with pp than a seller, in fact, sellers get virtually no protection at all. I don't accept the concept that this is "part of the cost of doing business" - that is just BS. My son lost hundreds on some transaction by people that "play the games". No way can he make up for this loss by over charging everyone else, nor is that really ethical for the other buyers.

    You get this same buyers side protection with pretty much an cc transaction except under some very unusual circumstances, so it isn't PP so much as the CC companies that force the protection.

    As a seller - I just will not use PP until they offer some kind of protection to the sellers. Any loss of business is nothing compared to just a few bad transactions.

    FEES and who pays them

    Credit card companies, and PP kind of have merchants by the short hairs in this area. It costs real money - as in substantial, to accept CC transactions, even more to accept PP, and even more if it is a transaction crossing a border. The CC companies make a lot off of high consumer interest rates, so they want to encourage CC use and debt - so they force - by rules - not law - that the merchants can't charge more. You can; however, offer cash discounts.

    In an example transaction, pay someone $ 1,000 using PP or CC - you are well into $ 50 minimum, and easily pushing $ 100 in some cases.

    Pay the same person with a walmart money order - 50 cents IIRC.

    Is there really THAT MUCH more value added to the transaction to doing it all electronically vs by hand to charge 200X more? IMHO - no. It has to be certainly no more expensive to do a fully electronic transaction than one that includes paper + electronic transaction.

    If someone wants the pleasure and convenience of PAYING via CC or PP, then IMHO, they can pay the fees themselves, buried in the price I guess, and everyone else gets a cash discount.
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  29. #29
    Flashaholic* bshanahan14rulz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post
    Last time I checked paypal does not make the law yet. I have no idea where you read that I said anything is right or wrong, or reverse anything. Don't putting words in my mouth.


    I guess we just see things differently. For me it's simply a case of "none of your (or my) business", there are too many more important things to worry about this, for me anyway.
    it may not be directly stated in the US Constitution that you are not allowed to cheat paypal out of money that they are owed for a service, but you agreed to pay them when you signed on. If they can prove in court that you didn't pay what you agreed to pay, I doubt that you would win that case.

    I say whatever. Everyone who sells using paypal already adjusts their prices, so it's not like it makes it hard to compare deals... I like not having to give my CC number to some random website in China.

  30. #30
    Administrator Kestrel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Paypal "Gift" = No buyer protection? Ethical? OK for CPFM?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullzeyebill View Post
    I think the word should get around to those who are requesting the added 4% for credit card paypal purchases, as I think that most of them do not know it is against paypal policy. I personally think that paypal is overcharging for credit paypal payments, and the fee should be paid by the buyer, not the seller.
    +2, I agree with all of this.

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