Anyone else frustrated with the lack of "First Responder" lights?

bkumanski · Oct 14, 2009

OK, I love my LED lights and they are some of the brightest damned lights anyone I know has ever seen. Oh, and being solid state, the LEDs are indestructible and perfect for LE and fire applications. They are the wave of the future...So why isn't anyone getting on the bandwagon to make a decent dedicated first responder light?

Reader's Digest background: I have been LE for 8 years now and am currently in a special assignment where I don't use my light everyday (although I wish I could :thumbsup

. When I was in patrol I worked mostly graveyard (ninjas love the dark) and have used many lights. My first was a Streamlight XT. It was rechargeable, but not very bright. Bulbs burned out a lot. Upgraded to the HP head. Better, but still burned through bulbs, and battery life was horrible (NiCd cells :thumbsdow).

Next I jumped on the LED bandwagon and got an Inova T4. This light was on the right track: smaller, bright (for it's time), and rechargeable. Not just the battery, but the whole light had a charging dock. I have since moved on to a DBS, an Eagletac, and most currently, a Malkoff modded 2C Maglight.

Now my complaint: I see why Streamlight has maintained its place as a top LE and fire light provider, even though they are several generations behind in their electronics. Body build quality and battery configurations. I love my DBS, but it really doesn't matter how good the coating is if the body is lightweight and soft. Don't get me wrong, I love my DBS, but two drops on concrete and you can tell it is not nearly as tough as the Mags and Streamlights. Even my Mag mod (tough body and switch) isn't really the best either because the batteries have to be removed to charge. This is fine for an occasional use light, but o-rings are not meant to be put through that every day, not to mention the wear on batteries with the springs always rubbing on the negative terminal. Removing batteries to recharge in a light used every day really blows.:toilet:

Inova, Streamlight, and Pelican are the only companies I found which have recharging capability (in the light, not just batteries), heavy duty (switches, lenses, body, the works) construction, and LED bulbs. Unfortunately, they are several generations behind in the illumination department. Why can't someone build a duty light in a 2-3 C mag size or similar, make it a decent LED (doesn't have to be "cutting edge", maybe an R2 or underdriven MCE or P7) and have a charging port or dock? Since recharging in a cradle has been standard for LE lights for numerous years now, I find it hard to believe there are so few options. Mix the best of these lights and you would have a small form factor, durable, BRIGHT LED offering with the convenience of a recharging cradle. Basically, it's what LE has been using for years, but with a high tech LED upgrade.

Build this, and everyone I know in LE and fire would be all over it! :hitit:

If someone knows something I don't please enlighten me, I really would like to see a light like this.

R@ndom · Oct 14, 2009

You could try and mod a magcharger... But is swapping batteries every couple of hours that hard?

dano · Oct 14, 2009

How, exactly, is Streamlight outdated? This keeps coming up, probably due to OP's not doing any research, and formulating opinions on word-of-mouth.

Streamlight currently uses Cree LED's (like a majority of LED based lights). And the Strion and Strion-LED have Li-Ion battery tech.

What's so outdated?

Some don't like Nicad cells, but they work, and work very well. Streamlight can't update the cells, as it would also require an updated charger, etc, and with the number of Stingers and SL-series lights in use, that would be a very unwise business decision.

NoFair · Oct 14, 2009

I like being able to pop in fresh batteries since charging normally takes minutes to hours.

Pelican makes a good led with charging dock:

http://pelican.com/lights_detail.php?recordID=7060

msloshooter · Oct 14, 2009

I see where he is going with this. I am also in LE and for the most part 99.9% of cops aren't flashaholics. They don't want to be bothered with taking batteries in and out of flashlights. It's hard enough to get them to remember to put the SL-20's back into the charging cradle some of the time.

If something is going to be made for LE and Fire it has to be brutaly simple. These guys and gals will not take the time to figure out how it works correctly. They want simple... put light in holder... thats it, no multi-mode, twist here, push here, just on/off, thats it.

Remeber, 30 years ago most LE had military backgrounds and a survival attitude. Now, the majority of newly hired cops have never handled a gun before. Most training time is spent getting them basic knowledge. The only ones who go beyond that, teach themselves.

bkumanski · Oct 14, 2009

dano said:
How, exactly, is Streamlight outdated? This keeps coming up, probably due to OP's not doing any research, and formulating opinions on word-of-mouth.

Streamlight currently uses Cree LED's (like a majority of LED based lights). And the Strion and Strion-LED have Li-Ion battery tech.

What's so outdated?

Some don't like Nicad cells, but they work, and work very well. Streamlight can't update the cells, as it would also require an updated charger, etc, and with the number of Stingers and SL-series lights in use, that would be a very unwise business decision.

No, I do check up on these lights often. They don't even make an LED light as bright as their SL20 which is a behemoth incan, but there are plenty of LEDs which compete. And the Strion isn't even close to a duty light, its a backup light. Try putting a traffic cone on a Strion. Just because it is a Cree Led, doesn't mean it is a newer or even a bright LED. I have compared, head to head, my Inova to the LED Streamlights(specifically the stinger LED which claims to "be the brightest available" right on the box. 150 lumens max, it can't be any better. I have the older Inova T4, and it was brighter than the Streamlights. Don't get me wrong, I love the build quality. I want Streamlight to make a light like this. But anything smaller than a stinger is pushing it for a duty light. Back up, fine. NiCad fine? 1 hour with a mini xmas light bulb and 45 min with an HP bulb putting out only 100 or so lumens is not my idea of efficient. I know they have the tech as they use LiIons in their smaller lights. Why not port the tech over to the bigger lights? I do see the point of how many other NiCad chargers there are out there, but you have to move on at some point, just like computers. When I say they are a little behind, I am referring only to LED output and batteries (for duty sized lights).

As far as the Pelican, besides being an ugly light (personal opinion only) it seems to be one of the only offerings. However, the police equipment supply we use has taken many back for quality issues, and even the good ones seem to be about as bright as my Inova, again. A little tighter hotspot, but overall brightness is less than my little Dereelight CL1H and my old Eagletac TC2.

Changing batteries isn't really too bad, but every day with a separate charger can wear on parts. A fast charger like the li ion chargers we use can charge the cells just as fast in the light (1-2 hours). My Inova is LiIon and it charges in less than 1 hour. It's possible. I suppose it is more of a convenience which has been a standard for the Streamlights as long as I can remember.

Still, I will continue to use my Mag mod and DBS (Until I destroy it...) and keep hoping for Streamlight to make a brighter rechargeable LED offering as I do love the quality of their bodies, lenses, switches, chargers, etc.

Howecollc · Oct 14, 2009

ANDREAS FERRARI said:
The new LED MagCharger should be out soon.They have been showing it off at trade shows but I have yet to see a picture of one.

I wonder if the incan version will be discontinued?

Dealers that carry the original might drop the price to make room for the new model.Maybe just wishful thinking.

bkumanski · Oct 14, 2009

Would be interesting. A little big, but maybe not too much. BTW, the reason for being rechargeable is because If the department is issuing a light, they want to have a charger for everyone. Both Streamlight, Maglight, and I think Pelican all make bank chargers for multiple lights, as well as individual ones for locker/personal use.

RAGE CAGE · Oct 14, 2009

bkumanski said:
OK, I love my LED lights and they are some of the brightest damned lights anyone I know has ever seen. Oh, and being solid state, the LEDs are indestructible and perfect for LE and fire applications. They are the wave of the future...So why isn't anyone getting on the bandwagon to make a decent dedicated first responder light?

Reader's Digest background: I have been LE for 8 years now and am currently in a special assignment where I don't use my light everyday (although I wish I could :thumbsup. When I was in patrol I worked mostly graveyard (ninjas love the dark) and have used many lights. My first was a Streamlight XT. It was rechargeable, but not very bright. Bulbs burned out a lot. Upgraded to the HP head. Better, but still burned through bulbs, and battery life was horrible (NiCd cells :thumbsdow).

Next I jumped on the LED bandwagon and got an Inova T4. This light was on the right track: smaller, bright (for it's time), and rechargeable. Not just the battery, but the whole light had a charging dock. I have since moved on to a DBS, an Eagletac, and most currently, a Malkoff modded 2C Maglight.

Now my complaint: I see why Streamlight has maintained its place as a top LE and fire light provider, even though they are several generations behind in their electronics. Body build quality and battery configurations. I love my DBS, but it really doesn't matter how good the coating is if the body is lightweight and soft. Don't get me wrong, I love my DBS, but two drops on concrete and you can tell it is not nearly as tough as the Mags and Streamlights. Even my Mag mod (tough body and switch) isn't really the best either because the batteries have to be removed to charge. This is fine for an occasional use light, but o-rings are not meant to be put through that every day, not to mention the wear on batteries with the springs always rubbing on the negative terminal. Removing batteries to recharge in a light used every day really blows.:toilet:

Inova, Streamlight, and Pelican are the only companies I found which have recharging capability (in the light, not just batteries), heavy duty (switches, lenses, body, the works) construction, and LED bulbs. Unfortunately, they are several generations behind in the illumination department. Why can't someone build a duty light in a 2-3 C mag size or similar, make it a decent LED (doesn't have to be "cutting edge", maybe an R2 or underdriven MCE or P7) and have a charging port or dock? Since recharging in a cradle has been standard for LE lights for numerous years now, I find it hard to believe there are so few options. Mix the best of these lights and you would have a small form factor, durable, BRIGHT LED offering with the convenience of a recharging cradle. Basically, it's what LE has been using for years, but with a high tech LED upgrade.

Build this, and everyone I know in LE and fire would be all over it!
If someone knows something I don't please enlighten me, I really would like to see a light like this.

PEAK LED Solutions in Cave Creek AZ has gone out of it's way to address this need for DURABLE LEO/SAR/Fire Dept. Lights- They even have a model called the First Responder with 9 diff. Battery configs, a large potinometer dial- (gloved useage).

http://www.em-mgt.com/LED/First Responder.html

http://www.em-mgt.com/LED/Night Patrol.html

http://www.em-mgt.com/LED/Combat Patrol.html

http://www.em-mgt.com/LED/SANDR.html

bkumanski · Oct 14, 2009

I have seen the ads for these lights here. They look nice, but they are also not chargeable without removing the batteries... Put a charge port on it and this may be a strong contender.

bkumanski · Oct 14, 2009

msloshooter said:
I see where he is going with this. I am also in LE and for the most part 99.9% of cops aren't flashaholics. They don't want to be bothered with taking batteries in and out of flashlights. It's hard enough to get them to remember to put the SL-20's back into the charging cradle some of the time.

If something is going to be made for LE and Fire it has to be brutaly simple. These guys and gals will not take the time to figure out how it works correctly. They want simple... put light in holder... thats it, no multi-mode, twist here, push here, just on/off, thats it.

Remeber, 30 years ago most LE had military backgrounds and a survival attitude. Now, the majority of newly hired cops have never handled a gun before. Most training time is spent getting them basic knowledge. The only ones who go beyond that, teach themselves.

Exactly. Simple, tough, bright.

futurelawguy · Oct 14, 2009

bkumanski said:
OK, I love my LED lights and they are some of the brightest damned lights anyone I know has ever seen. Oh, and being solid state, the LEDs are indestructible and perfect for LE and fire applications. They are the wave of the future...So why isn't anyone getting on the bandwagon to make a decent dedicated first responder light?

Reader's Digest background: I have been LE for 8 years now and am currently in a special assignment where I don't use my light everyday (although I wish I could :thumbsup. When I was in patrol I worked mostly graveyard (ninjas love the dark) and have used many lights. My first was a Streamlight XT. It was rechargeable, but not very bright. Bulbs burned out a lot. Upgraded to the HP head. Better, but still burned through bulbs, and battery life was horrible (NiCd cells :thumbsdow).

Next I jumped on the LED bandwagon and got an Inova T4. This light was on the right track: smaller, bright (for it's time), and rechargeable. Not just the battery, but the whole light had a charging dock. I have since moved on to a DBS, an Eagletac, and most currently, a Malkoff modded 2C Maglight.

Now my complaint: I see why Streamlight has maintained its place as a top LE and fire light provider, even though they are several generations behind in their electronics. Body build quality and battery configurations. I love my DBS, but it really doesn't matter how good the coating is if the body is lightweight and soft. Don't get me wrong, I love my DBS, but two drops on concrete and you can tell it is not nearly as tough as the Mags and Streamlights. Even my Mag mod (tough body and switch) isn't really the best either because the batteries have to be removed to charge. This is fine for an occasional use light, but o-rings are not meant to be put through that every day, not to mention the wear on batteries with the springs always rubbing on the negative terminal. Removing batteries to recharge in a light used every day really blows.:toilet:

Inova, Streamlight, and Pelican are the only companies I found which have recharging capability (in the light, not just batteries), heavy duty (switches, lenses, body, the works) construction, and LED bulbs. Unfortunately, they are several generations behind in the illumination department. Why can't someone build a duty light in a 2-3 C mag size or similar, make it a decent LED (doesn't have to be "cutting edge", maybe an R2 or underdriven MCE or P7) and have a charging port or dock? Since recharging in a cradle has been standard for LE lights for numerous years now, I find it hard to believe there are so few options. Mix the best of these lights and you would have a small form factor, durable, BRIGHT LED offering with the convenience of a recharging cradle. Basically, it's what LE has been using for years, but with a high tech LED upgrade.

Build this, and everyone I know in LE and fire would be all over it!
If someone knows something I don't please enlighten me, I really would like to see a light like this.

+1

I want my TK40 to be able to be charged like my SL20 and my stinger. (in a cradle). I want it to have a button on the tail in addition to the top of the body.....If it had these two adjustments it would be the PERFECT duty light.

stinky · Oct 14, 2009

Check out Elektrolumens Blaster-NG. I bought one of these (not here yet of course)

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=199637

No they are no "drop in a charger" type lights. But this is a seriously high-powered, normal-battery-using monster.

russthetoolman · Oct 14, 2009

http://www.powerledlighting.com/Eagle16W5200.html

has charging port, comes with charger, great light
Russ

bkumanski · Oct 14, 2009

russthetoolman said:
http://www.powerledlighting.com/Eagle16W5200.html

has charging port, comes with charger, great light
Russ

Nice! I have never seen this before. I hope the price reflects on the quality, it is a little pricy after all. Nothing in LE is inexpensive anyway...

russthetoolman · Oct 15, 2009

cpf member ryanrpm has done extensive testing and reviews, as he was the first to bring it to the forum, I own one myself and it is on the nightstand because it works, simply.
PM me your phone number if you want more info on it....
Russ

woodrow · Oct 15, 2009

I am no longer in the protection business, but I also think it would be nice if an American company would design a light (that charges on a base...and can handle real everyday abuse) arround the newest high power led coming out...and not months after there has allready been something better released.

I would think Pelican could...for example... make a P7/MCE head for its 4xC cell 8060 to replace the xre head. Or a whole new longer body/head that would replace the 7060 and let you use the same charger base.

But it will never happen. Pelican, Inova, SL will always play catch up. And I do not care what anyone says about..harder to re tool etc...what ever happened to the American passion of simply building the best product...and waiting for the market to form arround it..like Surefire did with the 6P and 10X back in the day?

Owen · Oct 15, 2009

woodrow said:
...what ever happened to the American passion of simply building the best product...and waiting for the market to form arround it..like Surefire did with the 6P and 10X back in the day?

There's a lack of demand in some of these markets. I don't mean a lack of demand as far as numbers go, but a lack of demand for improvement due to ignorance, and reluctance to change. Companies can manufacture all the product they want, but they can't manufacture demand for it. I think we all know they have to make what people will buy, and that leads in to what I see as the real issue.

As Private Jackson in Saving Private Ryan said "Sir, I have an opinion on this matter".
One of the greatest misconceptions I see about equipment in general, whether it be firearms, knives, flashlights, even packs, raingear, etc. is the idea that the professional users are the ones to go to for feedback.
Those people simply do not know what is even available most of the time. They don't explore the market, they don't test it, they don't obsess over it, and the majority of the time they don't care much about it-because what they know is what they are issued, or what is recommended by the old guard. AND, they will keep using inferior gear even when something newer and better, but unfamiliar, is offered to them. AND, even when they are given something they accept as better, they're not in a position to constructively critique it. Better is good enough.
You give somebody a Stinger when he's used to a 2D Maglite, and you're not going to hear much complaining-to the contrary, that "professional user" is going to sing its praises to anyone who will listen.

I tested the Gore-Tex stuff when it first came out, and the rest of the 1st generation ECWCS. That Gore-Tex sure kept you drier than a nylon poncho, and those polypros sure were more comfortable than wool and warmer than cotton. Those bulky, overweight underlayers shrunk up, melted, pilled horribly, and fit funny. The Gore-Tex was heavy as crap, soaked through eventually, and didn't actually breathe at all.
We LOVED it, and there probably would have been a full-scale rebellion if they'd tried to take it away from us. Not because it was so great, but because it was better than what we used before.

Innovation and market stimulation is not going to be sparked by soldiers, firemen, or LEOs, any more than it is the casual users who shop for gear at Wal-Mart.
It's sparked by hobbyists, by gear junkies. By people who actively seek, demand, and will pay for it. Those of us who are "into it" will always know more, and have better.
Awareness does seem to be increasing, though, as far as lights are concerned, but it's not a coincidence that the one I shine around my back yard is superior to what 99.9% of professional users who depend on their lights nightly carry, and that's not likely to change, either.

bkumanski · Oct 15, 2009

Owen said:
There's a lack of demand in some of these markets. I don't mean a lack of demand as far as numbers go, but a lack of demand for improvement due to ignorance, and reluctance to change. Companies can manufacture all the product they want, but they can't manufacture demand for it. I think we all know they have to make what people will buy, and that leads in to what I see as the real issue.

As Private Jackson in Saving Private Ryan said "Sir, I have an opinion on this matter".
One of the greatest misconceptions I see about equipment in general, whether it be firearms, knives, flashlights, even packs, raingear, etc. is the idea that the professional users are the ones to go to for feedback.
Those people simply do not know what is even available most of the time. They don't explore the market, they don't test it, they don't obsess over it, and the majority of the time they don't care much about it-because what they know is what they are issued, or what is recommended by the old guard. AND, they will keep using inferior gear even when something newer and better, but unfamiliar, is offered to them. AND, even when they are given something they accept as better, they're not in a position to constructively critique it. Better is good enough.
You give somebody a Stinger when he's used to a 2D Maglite, and you're not going to hear much complaining-to the contrary, that "professional user" is going to sing its praises to anyone who will listen.

I tested the Gore-Tex stuff when it first came out, and the rest of the 1st generation ECWCS. That Gore-Tex sure kept you drier than a nylon poncho, and those polypros sure were more comfortable than wool and warmer than cotton. Those bulky, overweight underlayers shrunk up, melted, pilled horribly, and fit funny. The Gore-Tex was heavy as crap, soaked through eventually, and didn't actually breathe at all.
We LOVED it, and there probably would have been a full-scale rebellion if they'd tried to take it away from us. Not because it was so great, but because it was better than what we used before.

Innovation and market stimulation is not going to be sparked by soldiers, firemen, or LEOs, any more than it is the casual users who shop for gear at Wal-Mart.
It's sparked by hobbyists, by gear junkies. By people who actively seek, demand, and will pay for it. Those of us who are "into it" will always know more, and have better.
Awareness does seem to be increasing, though, as far as lights are concerned, but it's not a coincidence that the one I shine around my back yard is superior to what 99.9% of professional users who depend on their lights nightly carry, and that's not likely to change, either.

It's sad, but I have to agree. I seem to be one of only 4 flashoholics in my department. Unless the professional market demands it, what's the point of marketing to them when its the hobbyist who drives innovation. Better is apparently good enough...How marginal.

kromeke · Oct 15, 2009

I think companies like Pelican play catch-up because they also certify their lights to be compliant with various standards, like explosion-proof and FM and the like.

You can't stay on cutting edge when there is a time lag between product development and standards lab testing. Throw in a feedback loop of engineering changes and revisions, and you'll quickly understand some of the issues involved.

Smaller companies are more swift on the technology front because they don't go through the certifications.

At least, that is what I think is occurring here.

I kinda object to the general "first responder" criteria. I don't know what your definition of first responder is, but I would think that EMTs would have different requirements than firemen who would have different requirements than police. (edit: I'm sure there is overlap in the requirements, but they would differ considerably in certain ways)

Anyone else frustrated with the lack of "First Responder" lights?

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