Bullet-proof clothing

Stress_Test

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Saw an interesting video on MSN.com a few days ago. It was about a clothing manufacturer (Miguel-something??) that produced bullet-proof jackets and overcoats that look like ordinary formal clothes. The video included live-fire demonstrations with handguns vs. actual people wearing the garments (!!).

I was pretty impressed at first that they could make these soft flexible coats able to withstand a pistol round from 1-2 feet away...

Then I watched the video a few more times. It sure looks like those pistols don't recoil very much. I mean, I've shot 9mm and .45 ACP a few times, and there's a pretty good recoil to those guns. The guns in the video looked more like .22 recoil, even though the slug they dug out from one of the jackets was a pretty good size. I'm guessing though that maybe they were using low-power rounds for the demo, something they specifically loaded without much powder.

I'd like to see one of those people in the video take a close-range shot from a .45 +P load and still be standing afterwards, like in the video footage. THEN I'd be impressed. :D
 

onikudaki

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I think I've seen this Video on german tv 3month ago.

Nice fiction at all. Can't believe either that someone's still standing after being shot with a 9mm or 45.ACP in short range. Even if the lightweigt bullet-proof clothing stops the bullet.
 

John_Galt

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Yeah, I saw that some time ago. Pretty neat thing, but I do wonder about it's actual effectiveness. And, really, Even if I had made that bullet-proof shirt, I sure wouldn't let my boss shoot me to prove it.
 

Patriot

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I wish I could see the video but no link was provided. I searched a while myself with no luck. In any case I looked into the manufacturer of the clothing and they adhere to National Institute of Justice or NIJ standards for ballistic protection. Since that's the case, they wouldn't have to use "low power" rounds for demonstration purposes. Also, observable recoil isn't a reliable way to judge the relative power of any cartridge since experienced combat shooters make recoil appear nil due to superior technique. Likewise, new shooters or those will poor technique can make recoil appear atrocious.

Soft armor comes in 4 main certified categories, I, II-A, II, and III-A, from least to most protection. Level I is rarely worn and isn't allowed by most police agencies or recommended by manufacturers because it doesn't provide enough protection again typically encountered calibers. So basically there are only three commonly used "soft" types, II-A, II, and III-A. Level II-A will stop 9mm FMJ at 1,090fps (332mps) and lesser calibers. It will also stop .357 Jacketed soft point at 1,250fps and lesser soft point calibers.

Being that level II-A is the very minimal norm there are typically three types of fiber/arrangements to attain this level, 6.0mm of standard Aramid fibers, 4.5 mm of Premium Aramid fibers, (very common) or 3.5mm of Ultra-thin Gold Flex. While slightly more powerful calibers can be stopped by level II-A the limiting factor is usually blunt force trauma. Any greater deformation than 1.7" or 44mm into soft clay media behind the vest and it fails NIJ standards for that class. Steel, carbon fiber, or an additional layer of soft armor trauma plates lesson blunt trauma but they're not counted toward the NIJ resistance rating. The only way to attain the higher rating, in this case, level II, would be to move up to a level II rating, which means more weight and bulk. That's 7.5mm of Standard Aramid, 5.5mm of Premium Aramid, or 4.0mm of Gold Flex.

There are many different body armor types in development or production, like Dragon Skin, or Shear thickening fluid but when in comes to certified soft fabrics, like the kind they're using in clothing, there will be a minimum thicknesses of 3.5mm level II-A, 4.0mm level II-A, and 5.25mm in level III-A. If they're showing you examples of any Aramid or Gold Flex fiber that are thinner than this, they're not being straight forward with the audience. For example, the sleeves, shoulders, sides, and lower belly of a shirt may be a standard cotton, while only a 5" X 8" sternum sized area is protected with NIJ rated ballistic protection. Well, this is extremely marginal and no LEO would be caught wearing something this minimal. A level II vest with clamshell front and back protection with open sides for ventilation, made of Ultra-thin Gold flex is going to weigh about 3.5 lbs. This is typically considered minimal body coverage and minimal multi-threat level protection by LEO and body guards. A stylish jacket in level II, without sleeve or over the shoulder protection but full-wrap torso is going to weight 5.5 lbs at the absolute minimum. So, if they're showing you lofty, blowing in the wind type materials in their demos, they're being slightly deceptive. Judging by their website they disclose these limitations but it's not until the point of sale that the average person is going to know that there's a bulk and weight penalty to pay for ballistic protection.

Lastly, none of the soft armor discussed here will provide reasonable stab or spike protection. A good quality knife or spike will go right through soft armor without too much trouble. I stabbed though a static level II ballastic stack sample with a common Benchmade AFCK, with about 50mm of penetration into cardboard backing. :eek: An ice pick buries to the handle!
To deal with this manufacturers are adding stab resistant inserts or SRI's. These are rated in level 1,(24 Joules) 2,(33 Joules) and 3(43 Joules). There are also over-pressure ratings of 36, 50, and 63 Joules but this allows for 20mm of "over-penetration" meaning that the wearer would receive 20mm of penetration into his body. Even level 1 stiffens up the armor significantly though and they are not as comfortable as wearing soft armor alone.

I became interested in this subject many years ago when an acquaintance claimed a new material for use on passenger luggage to provide ballistic protection. I was given two square feet of the "secret" material for testing and it turned out to be a joke. Not only did .22LR at 1,050fps penetrate, but so did .177 caliber soft lead at 650fps. :laughing: Through this process of researched I eventually informed my acquaintance about NIJ standards and Twaron...I don't think Gold flex existed at the time. Eventually I worked with a guy selling various types body armor at local gun shows, I own some of my own and have kept up with innovation ever since. It's actually very slow moving developmentally and hasn't been hard to follow over the years. There had been greater development in hard armors but trust me, no stock broker is going to wear that on his way to wall street. It's simple not practical. ;)
 
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Juggernaut

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No matter what the people in the video "that I did not watch because I can not find it:(" are wearing as far as soft body armor "no plate armor / dragon skin" then they shouldn't easily withstand being shoot by anything more then a .25 auto. I've seen pictures of people in hospitals after being shoot with "bullet resistant" vest and even with out penetration, huge welts that literally compassed into the victim were evident:sick2:. Think about this. While the bullet does not penetrate, the energy is still present and absorbed by the user with out this force being spread out over a huge area "such as a 8x9 plate" A .45 ACP round would be the equivalent of being hit by a 16 oz. Ball peen hammer at 106 Miles an hour:eek:! And I know no one that can swing a hammer that fast:laughing:! Or a 8 pound sledge hammer at 37 miles an hour:faint:. Personally, I can't even swing a sledge hammer that heavy at 18 miles an hour:whistle:. So imagine the strongest man on earth, swinging a 8 pound sledge hammer at you:duck:! Now tell me you could just stand there afterwards:crackup:! Granted the hammer will not penetrate your skin. Broken ribs and other internal damage would probably be present:help:.

A good way to look at it is, imagine car manufactures that scored 5 star crash test ratings advertised videos of people actually in the car when it hit the test wall at 45 M.P.H.! Just because it can do something, doesn't mean it's fun and safe!
 
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Patriot

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A good way to look at it is, imagine car manufactures that scored 5 star crash test ratings advertised videos of people actually in the car when it hit the test wall at 45 M.P.H.! Just because it can do something, doesn't mean it's fun and safe!



Good analogy Jugg, I liked it. :)





With regards to behind armor blunt trauma or BABT, the NIJ has set standards called 0101.03, 0101.04, and 0101.05 that say no deformation can occur on soft clay backing that exceeds 1.7" or 44mm. If it exceeds 44mm then it must be downgraded. Level III-A becomes level II and level II becomes level II-A. The BABT standards set by the NIJ were in picked according to medical understandings of BFT to the torso. Here is a very good read.

The limiting factor of soft armor is not penetration it's deformation. While shooting at a glock 19, 9mm FMJ 1140 fps, a level II armor sample (the one I had was 21 layers of DuPont Kevlar) from 3 feet away, the most layers that were ever penetrated were 8 out of 21. While this particular sample would also likely stop the same bullet at close 1600 fps, the level II armor would fail grossly on the grounds of blunt force trauma. In other words, the projectile doesn't have to penetrate to kill or severely injur. Blunt force trauma can stop the heart and easily break bones. In my goof around tests, the remaining 13 layers of unpenetrated ballistic material are simply there to limit BABT to NIJ standards. The impact energy is passed on and absorbed by each successive layer beyond the 8 that were initially penetrated. A person can purchase small 4x4 or 6x6 samples of various armor levels for $35 to $75 if they want to experiment with it....STATICALLY obviously.

EDIT: Another brief BFT link.
EDIT: Some other good info but you'll have to register in order to view patent PDF files. The text is additionally informative though and worded far better than what I can do.
 
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Juggernaut

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Oh, thanks for showing the flaws in my analogy. I was using a ballistic calculator for all the statistics of the hammers. While trying to get around the 390 Foot pound mark of a 45 ACP. A 16 oz. hammer "7000 grains" at 159 FPS makes 393 Ft.P. while at 19.19 mph "28.785 FTPS "you mentioned" the hammer only makes 13 Ft.P. of energy. I know there is a huge difference muzzle energy and TKO mostly dealing with the weight of the projectile and VS. it's velocity. However does my calculations not make sense:thinking::(? Of courses It wasn't until I read your reply when I remembered that the hammer's head alone would have the make the impact "the force of the human's arms, body, hammer's handle, etc would mess up the equation "just as you would not measure the weight and velocity of a human's fist when calculating pouncing force because that fist has an arm and entire body behind it. Also the gradual slowing of a projectile through living tissue allows a slower exchange of energy and the same can be said if people were made of chrome Vadium. The bullet would most likely disintegrate in all directions "except forwards" so energy would be lossed there. Thus unless the object to be collided with "and the projectile" were invincible: instantaneous energy transfer could never happen "people will never fly backwards when shot". I understand that bullet proof vest are not simply made thick enough to stop bullets but also to reduce blunt trauma to the wearer. Just as a 5.56x45mm round producing 1,200 Ft.P of energy could slice right through a A-II Kevlar vest, a slower moving cannon ball with the same energy would not penetrate any of the Kevlar but still kill the wearer. Sorry if I was rambling on but it's late I'm tired, but I understand what you were saying. I hope:tired:.
 

Patriot

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No prob Jugg. I really did like your analogy of the crash testing though brother. :twothumbs


Regarding the calculation, I'm not quite sure if or where it's off. I'll have to mess with it tomorrow and maybe we can figure it out together. If you're using a ballistic computer though, I'm not sure how it could be wrong. Maybe it's correct, in which case. You're the man :cool:

Relating to Newton's law of motion I should have have said it was the conservation of momentum. Newton's third law applies to action/reaction pairs when both forces happen simultaneously. In any case ignore the arm power in the hammer example and just think of the hammer as being thrown with a mass-less handle. When firing a hand gun the instantaneous (relative) force generated against the palm of the hand is the same force that the target will be subjected to. The difference is that most of the bullet's energy on the target side results in penetration. This can be demonstrated by a relatively small, lightweight block of ballistic gelatin that doesn't even move back six inches, never mind go flying backwards through a window like bad guys in the movies. Here's a guy wearing rifle protection armor and taking a .308 round from a feet feet away. Quality is poor but fast forward to 1:20.
 

Stress_Test

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Mathcad for the win!

Based on kinetic energy, I set the KE of a bullet equal to the KE of an object of unknown mass, moving at 90mph (the speed of a Pro baseball fastball pitch) and then solved for the mass of the unknown object. Mathcad does the grunt work on the unit conversions (if you're feeling ambitious you can check it by hand for me :) )

Result is that, using Patriot's estimate of .5oz for a bullet...

a .5oz bullet at 1000fps is the same energy as a 1.8 lb object moving at the speed of a major league fastball pitch. Ouch? Yes. Will it knock you 10ft back? No.

Of course, what happens when you get HIT by the object depends on how the object deforms, how you deform, and a whole bunch more of nasty math and physics. :faint:

Hopefully I didn't FUBAR anything in the sample below... ;)

 

Stress_Test

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By the way,

I remembered the name of the company: Miguel Caballero. (Caballero is cowboy?? ...sounds familiar but can't remember).

Anyway, I searched MSN for that name, and found articles but no video. Sorry!
 

Patriot

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Looks like a nice program Stress Test. Maybe you could check Jugg's ballistic program as I suspect he's right.

8lbs @ 37mph

&

1lb @ 106mph

Looking for foot pounds of energy for each example.


I had to look up the weight of a baseball and it was 5-5.25 ounces. More than three times that weight and moving at fast ball speed would drop me like a sack of potatoes...:eek:
 
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Stress_Test

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For the 8lb object I get 366 ft-lbf,
For the 1lb object I get 376 ft-lbf

The .5oz bullet at 1000ft/sec works out to 486 ft-lbf. Sounds pretty reasonable based on ballistics tables I've seen.

From what I understand, those numbers actually used to be generated with a kind of "ballistic pendulum" where they shot a pendulum with the round, then measured how high the pendulum would swing. Some of the energy would be lost in heat and deformation of the bullet, but I imagine it was still pretty accurate. I don't know what they use now.. :shrug:

You can use KE = (1/2)(m)(V)^2 to work out different combinations of weight vs. velocity.

But do yourself a favor and convert to kilograms and meters per second, which gives you KE in joules, THEN change that to foot pounds. Otherwise you end up with units like slug-ft/sec^2 and that's just no fun at all! ;)
 

Patriot

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Nice to see Jugg was right on the money. Props to him and his ballistic program nailing it the first time out! :thumbsup:



Stress-test
But do yourself a favor and convert to kilograms and meters per second, which gives you KE in joules, THEN change that to foot pounds. Otherwise you end up with units like slug-ft/sec^2 and that's just no fun at all! ;)
Will do and thank you for the tip. I'm pretty slow on this stuff, even with a scientific calculator that I barely know how to operate. :p
 

Juggernaut

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Nice to see Jugg was right on the money. Props to him and his ballistic program nailing it the first time out! :thumbsup:

Thanks for the credit, It wasn't that hard, I spend way to much time putting data in Ballistic, TKO, and other calculators to see what I'll get:crazy:. To truly show how much mass Vs. Velocity play affect. Hears an example: 50 BMG round fired from a standard length barrel will produce the same energy as my 74' Lincoln rolling a little over 8 mph:laughing:! Obviously no one should die getting hit by a car at such slow speeds "unless then went under:eek:". Unlike the car, a 50 BMG isn't so kind to humans:shakehead. Of course this brings up a greater point and that is a 50 BMG would never dump all of it's energy into one person. If a AP 50 BMG could penetrate the equivalent length of tissue as 20 people then each one would only suffer 700 Ft. pounds of energy, less then a light weight high velocity .357 magnum HP that wouldn't penetrate more than 12 inches of flesh.
 

qip

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google "bulletproof clothing"

i get http://www.miguelcaballero.com/cms/front_content.php

and youtube has a bunch of his vids, one showed pictures of clients which include steven segal , and japanese vip ,columbian president etc

one video had a person get shot by a 38cal and theres pictures of guns you can get shot by ,uzi was in there too

kinda neat but i thought it would be better, like the entire fabric was special or something not just the meat of the body with a bulletproof panel in the lining
 

Burgess

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Very informative thread here !


Thank you to everyone for your contributions.


:goodjob:
_
 

Patriot

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Thanks qip,

I would avoid their website since it's terribly slow.


Here are some vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJ33qMRKFY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQbN9GMK-s0

Note: No one goes flying backwards across the room...hehe. :)





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_zwqfcIGg0

One comment was made in the last video where the representative made the statement that it's 3X lighter than any other type of bullet resistant material. That's a completely false statement. "Gold Flex" is the lightest, "soft" body armor available and it's about 40% lighter than premium Aramid fibers used in most military and police armor today. It's also positively buoyant, vs. neutrally buoyant, which may be important to some users.

At the end of the video he's talking about their "Summer Wear" collection and suggests cotton's, linens, and breath-ability. Again, where the various levels of protection are sewn in, let's say, the back and chest of a cotton dress shirt, there will be a minimum of 4mm of non-breathable material and this only protects against minimal calibers. More protection requires more layers of material, up to 6mm for the highest level of NIJ rated pistol ammunition. Like many things there's often a trade off between weight and strength and if I had someone gunning for me I'd rather be sweating my tail off than dead. If nothing else I think it's an interesting company since a lot of their clientele is civilian.
 
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