What driver for this emitter? Please..help a fellow out..I need it!

BrightLight2000

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Guys,

I am going to build my first flashlight.

Please give me some advice.

I bought the XPG RC5 Emitter from KD.
http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=10060

I am going to use 2 CR123's at first since I have them...but once I use them up I am going to use either 2 RCR123's or a single 18650.

I need a driver for it. I would rather a 3 mode or even just a single mode. I just really don't like anything that has SOS.

I do not know much about power regulation....yet. :)

It does not ahve to be the cheapest driver either.

Also, which is better to use 2 RCR123's or a single 18650.
 
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Gunner12

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How much are you willing to pay for the driver, and how much current do you want it to send to the LED?
 

Justin Case

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The KD1640 (nominally 1A drive current) is probably your best bet if you really want to be able to run with both 1xLi-ion or 2xLi-ion. The issue is that you need a (buck) driver that can handle both a nominal 7.4V from the 2xLi-ion (that's the easy part) as well as run in regulation at a nominal 3.7V from 1xLi-ion (the hard part). The KD1640 has a relatively low voltage overhead to run in regulation and might be able to meet the second requirement. There are plenty of other buck drivers that certainly can handle 1xLi-ion and 2xLi-ion, but it is unclear if they will run in regulation with 1xLi-ion. If you can find a boost-buck driver that can run between say 3V and 9V, that would be ideal, but I'm not sure I can think of one for a flashlight.

Running 2x16340 is better in terms of ease of running and staying in regulation.

1x18650 will have longer run time and the advantage of being a single cell (e.g., no cell imbalance issues, no cell-to-cell impacts).

If you want to run with 1xLi-ion, I would use a 3xAMC7135 based driver (1050mA nominal drive current). You can select from single mode or multimode choices.

What flashlight host are you going to use? The KD1640 is a 17mm diameter board, typical for fitting into P60 drop-ins. Can you use larger drivers, e.g., 20mm, or smaller drivers, e.g., 14mm?
 
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Justin Case

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Based on the image of the KD9910, I don't see how it can deliver the claimed 1A output. It looks to me that the sense resistor is 0.47 ohms, giving 425mA output.

Let me explain something that you may not realize or understand. There is no standard method for specifying the voltage range for a driver. The upper limit is often based on the maximum rating of the buck, boost, boost-buck, or linear regulator IC that is used. The lower limit is typically the iffy figure. Is it the minimum voltage required to run in regulation? Is it the minimum rating of the buck, boost, boost-buck, or linear regulator IC? Is it the voltage for initial LED turn-on (and which LED -- a new XP-G, an old XR-E, a Seoul P4,...?). Is it the voltage that gives 50% of the rated output current (again, which LED is used when determining this)? Something else? Who knows?

So when KD9910 claims a voltage range of 3V to 12V, the whole thing is somewhat iffy. The PT4105 buck IC has a recommended operating voltage range of 5V to 18V. It has an absolute max rating of 20V. Certain components (a resistor and a capacitor) are recommended to be added to the typical application circuit shown in the PT4105 datasheet if you operate above 12V.

As best as I can tell (I'd need to trace the connections on the board to make sure), I see the recommended 1 ohm resistor, but I don't see the capacitor. That might be why KD specs the board only up to 12V.

But what is the 3V lower limit? Can't tell you that. I can tell you that for the drop-ins that I have which also use the PT4105 at 1A output, they all need about 5V input to get the driver to run in full regulation (LEDs are a Cree XR-E P4 and an XR-E R2). At 3V, I measured about 100mA drive current (i.e., a dim LED). I suspect that's why the PT4105 datasheet has a recommended voltage range starting at 5V, not 3V.

With the KD1640 driver I suggested before, and driving an XP-G R4, I measured an input voltage of about 4V for the driver to run in full regulation. My driver/LED pair required about 0.7V above the LED's Vf to run in regulation. Others have measured even lower required voltage. This post claims 0.5V voltage overhead.

Basically, 1x18650 will probably start in regulation, but probably stay there only for a short time as the battery drains. At an input voltage under load of say 3.8V, I would estimate that the drive current will fall to 500mA or less. The KD1640 probably won't run when the voltage hits about 3.3V to 3.4V (your Li-ions would essentially be empty anyway at that point).

That's the challenge. If you want to have good run time in regulation with 1x18650, I'd suggest using a 3xAMC7135 based driver (single mode or multimode). If you want to run with 2x16340, then the KD1640 will work well. If you want the flexibility to run either battery option, then I don't know of a driver that can run well in regulation for both cases (unless your KD1640 sample has a lower voltage overhead than the one I got -- if you get one with an 0.5V overhead, then you are probably in good shape to use either 1x18650 or 2x16340; but you can't tell just by visual inspection).
 
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BrightLight2000

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Justin,

Ok... So what about running the 1640 with 2 regular cr123's not rechargables? Will that work?

If I got the 3XAMC7135 would that work with all 3 battery combos? If, so how do I wire it? Is there a diagram somewhere?

Do you know what knda drives are in Fenix TK11 R2's?

I have one and it can run on all 3 battery types.

What about a driver on DX....any there that would work?

Thanks
 

BrightLight2000

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The drivers in P60 dropins seem to run all battery combo's.

Basically I would want something to be able to run about 60 mins on high. If that helps.
 

Gunner12

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The AMC 7135 drivers are almost like smart resistors, they remove the excess voltage by burning them off as heat.

The driver you linked to should work for the battery combo, but I don't know what it's output current it.

Justin Case is recommending this driver, which should work for you.
 

Justin Case

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Justin,

Ok... So what about running the 1640 with 2 regular cr123's not rechargables? Will that work?

It's a buck driver. If it works at 4V and at 7.4V, guess what happens for voltages in-between? It is true that perhaps the driver is ill-behaved and might show some odd behavior at other untested voltages. And in fact, the KD1640 does seem to show an odd output dip at about 5V, which is where 2x123A could be. It looks to me that instead of about 1040mA output, you'll get about 950mA at 5V. Other than that, however, the KD1640 seems very well-behaved from 3.3V to 12V (I didn't test the driver at any higher voltages, not that it can't run at higher voltages), with full regulation occurring at Vin of about 4.0V.

If I got the 3XAMC7135 would that work with all 3 battery combos? If, so how do I wire it? Is there a diagram somewhere?

See my post #3: "If you want to run with 1xLi-ion, I would use a 3xAMC7135 based driver (1050mA nominal drive current)."

If the AMC driver could work with all of your desired battery combos, I would have recommended it for all of those combos. Again, see my post #3: "The KD1640 (nominally 1A drive current) is probably your best bet if you really want to be able to run with both 1xLi-ion or 2xLi-ion." I amplified on this in post #5: "If you want the flexibility to run either battery option, then I don't know of a driver that can run well in regulation for both cases (unless your KD1640 sample has a lower voltage overhead than the one I got -- if you get one with an 0.5V overhead, then you are probably in good shape to use either 1x18650 or 2x16340; but you can't tell just by visual inspection)."

The recommended max input voltage for an AMC7135-based driver is 6V. Thus, 2xLi-ion is out. In fact, it will fry the driver. 2x123A will work, but it won't be very efficient. Efficiency is basically Vf/Vbatt. You want your input voltage to be a bit greater than the forward voltage of the LED at the drive current of interest (e.g., you want input voltage to be around 1xLi-ion level, or about 3.7V-4.2V nominal, when driving your typical single-die LED like an XR-E, XP-G, SSC P4).

If an AMC driver is still of interest, use the CPF search function. There are plenty of posts on how to wire those boards.

Do you know what knda drives are in Fenix TK11 R2's?

No.

I have one and it can run on all 3 battery types.

Define what you mean by "can run". Have you verified that the TK11 driver runs in regulation across your desired voltage range? See my post #5: "There is no standard method for specifying the voltage range for a driver. The upper limit is often based on the maximum rating of the buck, boost, boost-buck, or linear regulator IC that is used. The lower limit is typically the iffy figure. Is it the minimum voltage required to run in regulation? Is it the minimum rating of the buck, boost, boost-buck, or linear regulator IC? Is it the voltage for initial LED turn-on (and which LED -- a new XP-G, an old XR-E, a Seoul P4,...?). Is it the voltage that gives 50% of the rated output current (again, which LED is used when determining this)? Something else? Who knows?"

What about a driver on DX....any there that would work?

DX3256 might be a candidate, but I have no experience with this and can't vouch that you'll get the AX2002-based board instead of the Zetex C300 version. See this link for some discussion of the new version of the board.
 

BrightLight2000

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Justin,

Thanks for explaining so much. Like I said I am just now starting to learn.

If you have a site or link that would help me with voltages, regulation, etc... sort of a small crash course to help me better understand the specs of the drivers that would be great!

For now I think that I am going to go with the 1640...because I have no idea when I will get around to buying a charger and some 18650's. Since I have about 20 cr123's I need to use most of them up at least.

If you are interested in how it turns out ... let me know!

Who knows how long it will take to get the driver from KD. :)
 

uk_caver

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FWIW, I just got a few of the
http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDeta...roductId=10184
'3.6V~8.4V 3-mode' drivers to play with in an application run from 4xNiMH/Alkaline AAs.

Efficiency doesn't seem bad on the high mode (75-80% with ~5.1V input, ~3.4V output), with a range of current sense resistors, from the original 0R1 through 0R19/0R27/0R33.
Output current high(low) isn't desperately predictable from the sense resistor:
0R1 - > 683mA(29mA)
0R19 -> 534mA(22mA)
0R27 -> 464mA(24mA)
0R33 -> 300mA(28mA)
Which gives apparent sense voltages of 68mV,104mV,125mV,99mV
I can see that at the highest current, the driver just isn't able to supply the full claimed ~1A output, but it's odd that going from 0R27 to 0R33 the current dropped so much.

The low setting is very low. Not sure why it varies randomly with changes of the sense resistor (maybe meter error measuring very low PWM rates).
Efficiency poor on low setting - somewhere around 40%, with input current being about 33% *higher* than output current.

It may well work better at higher voltages, but given the poor performance on low setting, and the minimal current saving on high with the original sense resistor (632mA in and 683mA out), if running off ~5-5.5V, it's not doing that much better than a 7135-based linear regulator driver would.

I doubt it would work very well at all on lower voltages, such as the claimed 3.6V - might try that out tomorrow.
 
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