Alright...I know there is at least one person here that can effectively answer this question. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I've been wondering about the new electric/gas hybrid vehicles...how exactly do they work? I know they have a gas powered generator and an electric motor...but that's all I know. Are there any batteries? Does the gas motor just continuously run and power the electric one? That doesn't seem like it would be very efficient to me... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Electric hybrids - how do they work?
- Thread starter zmoz
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jtice
Flashaholic
There are batts, or at least capasitors.
The gas motor runs to turn the generator,, which powers the motor. The gas motor will kick in at a higher power,, for acceleration, and hills. If the extra power isnt needed, it idles.
Some new models have a feature that ttakes heat from the brakes and uses ot to put power back in to the batts or capasitors. Im not sure how that works, one I saw was heat, one had a gear system engage into the wheels, slowing them down, and turning the generator.
The dash ussually has a display, showing of power is going from or to the electric motor. Example, if you are stopped or costing,, its going to the electric system to charge, if you floor it at a green light, the gas motor kicks in ,, shoing an arrow go toward the gas motor display, shoing you its using the gas mor than electric.
Unless, your talking about gas turbine engines. They dont propell the car forward,, they only act as a generator for the electric motor.
The gas motor runs to turn the generator,, which powers the motor. The gas motor will kick in at a higher power,, for acceleration, and hills. If the extra power isnt needed, it idles.
Some new models have a feature that ttakes heat from the brakes and uses ot to put power back in to the batts or capasitors. Im not sure how that works, one I saw was heat, one had a gear system engage into the wheels, slowing them down, and turning the generator.
The dash ussually has a display, showing of power is going from or to the electric motor. Example, if you are stopped or costing,, its going to the electric system to charge, if you floor it at a green light, the gas motor kicks in ,, shoing an arrow go toward the gas motor display, shoing you its using the gas mor than electric.
Unless, your talking about gas turbine engines. They dont propell the car forward,, they only act as a generator for the electric motor.
Brock
Flashaholic
A simplistic way to think of it is a small motor, say 70hp, driving the wheels with a big generator/motor, say 30hp and some extra batteries. So while driving normally the generator charges the battery pack. Then if you stomp on it, the gas motor drives all 90hp of its power to the wheels and the generator will turn in to a motor and also drive the wheels adding another 30 hp. So in that case you are driving a 110hp car. Also if the batteries are fully charged and your in stop and go traffic, the gas engine can shut off and you can drive on only the electric motor until you use the batteries up or need more power then the electric motor can supply.
When you brake the generator/motor uses the momentum of the car to drive the generator and charge the batteries.
When you brake the generator/motor uses the momentum of the car to drive the generator and charge the batteries.
Plus...(and this is really useful), electric motors deliver full torque (the aspect of power that makes you GO) at zero RPMs. So, you get more immediate acceleration from an electric motor boost than the extra 30 HP might imply.
Kirk
Enlightened
The Toyota Prius has a 70 HP gas engine (ICE) and a 44 HP electric motor/generator. There is another smaller motor/generator in there that controls the planetary gearbox operation. The computers control the sun and ring gears and which power supply (gas or electric) would be the most efficient at any given time. When the ICE is warmed to operating temperature it will turn off at stops. If you accelerate slowly, you'll use just the electric motor powered by the batteries. When you romp on it, both ICE and motor power the car. When cruising, mostly just the ICE is used. When backing up just the electric motor is used.
The Honda Insight and Civic Hybrid use an 11 HP motor as a flywheel to act like an electric "supercharger" to boost the ICE for passing and such.
So, basically, it's magic!
Kirk
The Honda Insight and Civic Hybrid use an 11 HP motor as a flywheel to act like an electric "supercharger" to boost the ICE for passing and such.
So, basically, it's magic!
Kirk
star882
Enlightened
"Unless, your talking about gas turbine engines. They dont propell the car forward,, they only act as a generator for the electric motor."
Like those in race cars?
I think gas turbine engines in race cars propels the car forwards directly.
Like those in race cars?
I think gas turbine engines in race cars propels the car forwards directly.
NightStorm
Flashlight Enthusiast
Darell
Flashaholic
They don't! Unless you think the gasoline Civic is ugly. The hybrid and pure ice are identical on the outside. Same with my pure electric Rav4 and the gas version. The Prius-I have to agree... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Darell
Flashaholic
Hmmm. I see some confusion here. The hybrid models available for sale in the US today REAQUIRE gasoline to operate. If you want to move your car 10 feet out of the garage to wash it, the gas engine must run. None of them run along on pure electricity and wait around for the throttle to be mashed before the gas engine kicks in. While the Prius has some small amount of pure electric range, it is S-l-o-w range, and quite short. Anything above parkinglot driving will typically light the ICE. The Honda has no electric-only range.
How they *should* work is in parallel. Today's are serial. A Parallel hybrid would allow you to power the car with the electric motor independently from the gas motor. In that case, you could charger the batteries externally (using no fossil fuels) and drive that way for as long as the batteries will allow. Then, if a longer trip is required, you just keep driving like normal, and the gas engine kicks on to power the car, charge the batteries, etc. As it is today, the electric motor doesn't work unless the gas engine is allowed to run.
How they *should* work is in parallel. Today's are serial. A Parallel hybrid would allow you to power the car with the electric motor independently from the gas motor. In that case, you could charger the batteries externally (using no fossil fuels) and drive that way for as long as the batteries will allow. Then, if a longer trip is required, you just keep driving like normal, and the gas engine kicks on to power the car, charge the batteries, etc. As it is today, the electric motor doesn't work unless the gas engine is allowed to run.
[ QUOTE ]
zmoz said:
Alright...I know there is at least one person here that can effectively answer this question. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I've been wondering about the new electric/gas hybrid vehicles...how exactly do they work? I know they have a gas powered generator and an electric motor...but that's all I know. Are there any batteries? Does the gas motor just continuously run and power the electric one? That doesn't seem like it would be very efficient to me... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Thought I would delurk here. This mode is actually auite efficient. With a normal car and engine you have losses in the transmission and drive train. You have loss in the axels/wheels/transmission/ and any gear that is less than a 1:1 ratio. Plus to an engine that can have a wide range in rpm is less efficient than an engine that oparates in a narrow rpm. For years manufactirers have tried to make their engines have a flat hp and torque graph but now they are in a marketing was over whose car has the highest horsepower. When you look at the graph of hp or torque on one of these engines they have a roller coaster type curve so you sacrifice efficiency at one end to get a lot of power and at the other end you sacrifce power to get good efficiency. Go look at a railroad engine, they have a big diesel engine that is connected directly to a generator and a narrow range of rpm for that engine, but it can be made quite efficient within that range. Then they have the motors right at the wheels to minimize loss. I always wondered why the current hybrids can;t be like that. I'm sure there are a lot of people like I whom drive 10 minutes on streets, then 15 minutes on the highway, then another 10 minutes off the highway till I park. I think I could run electric on those stop and go streets, then start the engine to have more power to merge on the highway, then let it settle down to low rpm to cruise and charge the batteries, then shut the engine off when I get back off the highway. Might even have a push button to change modes, anyone remember when car radios had a city/highway button? Anyone ever tried to do a hybrid conversion. I have seen vehicles converted to all electric but not too many hybrid.
zmoz said:
Alright...I know there is at least one person here that can effectively answer this question. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I've been wondering about the new electric/gas hybrid vehicles...how exactly do they work? I know they have a gas powered generator and an electric motor...but that's all I know. Are there any batteries? Does the gas motor just continuously run and power the electric one? That doesn't seem like it would be very efficient to me... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Thought I would delurk here. This mode is actually auite efficient. With a normal car and engine you have losses in the transmission and drive train. You have loss in the axels/wheels/transmission/ and any gear that is less than a 1:1 ratio. Plus to an engine that can have a wide range in rpm is less efficient than an engine that oparates in a narrow rpm. For years manufactirers have tried to make their engines have a flat hp and torque graph but now they are in a marketing was over whose car has the highest horsepower. When you look at the graph of hp or torque on one of these engines they have a roller coaster type curve so you sacrifice efficiency at one end to get a lot of power and at the other end you sacrifce power to get good efficiency. Go look at a railroad engine, they have a big diesel engine that is connected directly to a generator and a narrow range of rpm for that engine, but it can be made quite efficient within that range. Then they have the motors right at the wheels to minimize loss. I always wondered why the current hybrids can;t be like that. I'm sure there are a lot of people like I whom drive 10 minutes on streets, then 15 minutes on the highway, then another 10 minutes off the highway till I park. I think I could run electric on those stop and go streets, then start the engine to have more power to merge on the highway, then let it settle down to low rpm to cruise and charge the batteries, then shut the engine off when I get back off the highway. Might even have a push button to change modes, anyone remember when car radios had a city/highway button? Anyone ever tried to do a hybrid conversion. I have seen vehicles converted to all electric but not too many hybrid.
Brock
Flashaholic
[ QUOTE ]
zmoz said:
but how much natural gas was burned to make that electricity?
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh wait till Darell sees this. If I remember correctly it uses about 1/4 the natural gas compared to gasoline used to power the cleanest ICE. Even if you use Nat gas it is about 90% cleaner burning fuel to start with then gasoline, and power plants can clean or scrub the air they release much more efficiently then any car can. If you can charge the batteries with solar, then your about 99% cleaners then an ICE.
Wasn't the dirtiest oil-burning power plant about 5 times cleaner and more efficient then the best ICE car?
zmoz said:
but how much natural gas was burned to make that electricity?
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh wait till Darell sees this. If I remember correctly it uses about 1/4 the natural gas compared to gasoline used to power the cleanest ICE. Even if you use Nat gas it is about 90% cleaner burning fuel to start with then gasoline, and power plants can clean or scrub the air they release much more efficiently then any car can. If you can charge the batteries with solar, then your about 99% cleaners then an ICE.
Wasn't the dirtiest oil-burning power plant about 5 times cleaner and more efficient then the best ICE car?
Darell
Flashaholic
[ QUOTE ]
zmoz said:
I think one of the things keeping pure electric vehicles off the market is all the electricity they use up. Sure it's good and clean for the consumer...but how much natural gas was burned to make that electricity?
[/ QUOTE ]
I see my staff has covered this for me already. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif If you seriously want some answers to these basic misconceptions, reserve a week or so, and read the EV Thread plus the ones linked in the first post) that lead up to it.
Let me first thank you for generously suggesting natural gas as the power source. Most folks who want to make EVs look bad will come up with coal-fired plants every time.
Energy efficiency is the LAST thing that is hampering EVs. Let me just stick one little item in here: It takes as much electricity to make and distrubute a gallon of gasoline as it would take to power me down the road for about 25 miles. 20 totally CLEAN miles at that point. The oil/gasoline industry is the single largest consumer of electricity in the world. I'm about to install a solar system that will fuel my cars completely cleanly.
More important even then how much energy is used, is where the energy comes from, and WHEN it is used (if from the grid).
Get the cuffs out, and restrain me from dragging this thread down the EV path... I'm trying! Really I am.
zmoz said:
I think one of the things keeping pure electric vehicles off the market is all the electricity they use up. Sure it's good and clean for the consumer...but how much natural gas was burned to make that electricity?
[/ QUOTE ]
I see my staff has covered this for me already. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif If you seriously want some answers to these basic misconceptions, reserve a week or so, and read the EV Thread plus the ones linked in the first post) that lead up to it.
Let me first thank you for generously suggesting natural gas as the power source. Most folks who want to make EVs look bad will come up with coal-fired plants every time.
Energy efficiency is the LAST thing that is hampering EVs. Let me just stick one little item in here: It takes as much electricity to make and distrubute a gallon of gasoline as it would take to power me down the road for about 25 miles. 20 totally CLEAN miles at that point. The oil/gasoline industry is the single largest consumer of electricity in the world. I'm about to install a solar system that will fuel my cars completely cleanly.
More important even then how much energy is used, is where the energy comes from, and WHEN it is used (if from the grid).
Get the cuffs out, and restrain me from dragging this thread down the EV path... I'm trying! Really I am.
Darell
Flashaholic
Oops ***
Geez...I think you need a support group. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Actually I've just found out that Oregon gives a rather generous solar power tax credit...I'm thinking of getting ~2kw worth of solar panels to power my house. When I'm not using any of the power it will actually turn my electric meter backwards. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Brock
Flashaholic
zmoz, now your talking!
Darell
Flashaholic
Ya got that right. One of two things would cure my ills.
1. A Support group
2. EV availability so I don't NEED no stinking support group
I vote for number two.
1. A Support group
2. EV availability so I don't NEED no stinking support group
I vote for number two.
Gransee
Flashlight Enthusiast
Btw, Merri and I have a 2003 Civic Hybrid and I would be happy to answer any questions about it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Peter
Peter
