LM 338 Driver Problems

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
I'm building a set of LM338 drivers for some cree's I purchased. I'm using a 12V 3.33A laptop charger as my power supply. Now i hooked up the circuit like this


Lm338:
Vin > 12V+
Vadj > from resistor to LED
VOut > 1.6Ohm resistor To Vadj

( this type of driver circuit can be found here:
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Using-The-LM317T-With-LED-Lighting.htm
It uses a lm317 which is just a lower amp rating of the 338)

My end voltage is great. 10V meaning the regulator is functioning and i'm only dropping 2V, but my issue is current. I'm trying to put out 800mA. By doing the calculation:

1.25 / .800 = 1.6Ohm resistor.

Hooked everything up yet i'm only getting .04A(40mA) through my meter?

Is there something i'm missing here?
 

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
I will be hooking up two LEDs in series. There will be 4 of these circuits all ran off of their own lm 338 and sharing the powersupply.
 

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
Could it be that I'm measuring amps wrong?

-I plug the red probe into the 10A input and set it to 10Amp.
-I plug the black probe to ground
-Connect the positive to the output from the resistor (after the Vout pin)
-Connect the negative to the ground of the powersupply?


I get .04A @ 10.xxVolts.
I dont want to test with two Crees and risk a Fry...
 
Last edited:

Der Wichtel

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
829
Location
Germany
Carbon2010 said:
I will be hooking up two LEDs in series. There will be 4 of these circuits all ran off of their own lm 338 and sharing the powersupply.

so currently no LEDs are connected? What are you using instead?

Could it be that I'm measuring amps wrong?


the amperemeter must be connected in series of your circuit. For example between input voltage and your regulator
 
Last edited:

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
Your correct nothing is connected. I wanted to test the circuit before hooking anything up. And yup the meter was in aeries with the circuit
 

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
Could it be that because there is no LEDs the circuit isn't drawing the amps? I tryed hooking up some computer fans and they turned so slow they would stop Almost twitching due to the lack of current. I'm sure I hooked the circuit up correctly. Is there a problem with my electronics?
 

Der Wichtel

Enlightened
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Messages
829
Location
Germany
computerfans need higher voltage (12V) which the lm388 can't deliver.

Your circuit should be correct.
 

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
Well my meter said I was outputting 10ish volts more then enough to get some air from a 12v 13mA fan.
 

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
Hooked up a 12v light and nothing lit. Then I hooked directly to the power supply and it lit up. I'm really lost on this one?
 

lctorana

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
2,123
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Go here, and skip to page 8, the "5A Current Regulator". Three questions:

1. Apart from the value of R1, this is the circuit you are using, yes?

2. Your mention of the LM317 made me wonder whether you might have the wrong polarity - you are satisfied everyting is hooked up the right way around?

3. Check the pinouts, to ensure the 3 connections are actually where you think they are.

Other than that or a faulty device, I can't see anything wrong with your hookup.
 

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
I snapped some pics with my iphone quickly - excuse the terrible quality:


THE MAIN LINE (RED WIRE WITH TERMINAL) GOES TO THE POSITIVE OF THE SUPPLY
THE LOOSE LEADS FROM THE RESISTOR GO TO THE LEDS
LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS THINK OF THIS CIRCUIT...ITS MY FIRST TIME USING A SOLDERING GUN















I think everything is hooked up correctly? Hope nothing is fried...
 
Last edited:

Illum

Flashaholic
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
13,053
Location
Central Florida, USA
your paralleling 4 LM338s?! why would you do that if you want only 800ma out of it? they can handle 5 amps each!

If I'm looking at this correctly....



Your resistors are soldered to the wrong place. Its a common mistake if your just following wiring diagrams
For both LM317 and LM338, if your holding it in front of you where you can read the embedded words on the black encapsulation and have the heatsink facing the back, the pin sequence from left to right is Adj, Vout, Vin

In your case, a resistor is wired between Vout and Vin and your adj pin is bridged across 4 LM338s

All schematic charts put adj in the middle because the wiring diagram won't have crossed lines
consult the datasheets for LM338 and LM317 and take a look at the TO-220 diagram

What you are measuring is not the output I(load), but output I(gnd) because there is no resistor between the adj pin and the output pin as far as the driver is aware of, your making it try to compute by dividing by zero, I(gnd) is transient current loss through ground, and is used to factor in power loss, total current input, and efficiency. 40ma/4 = 10ma loss per driver at current configuration...this tells you something bad happened somewhere as transient loss is usually measured in micro-amps (µA), 1 µA = one millionth ( 10^-6 ) of an amp.

10ma = 1000µA
 
Last edited:

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
I wanted to keep heat down to an absolute minimum and they were only 1.50$ each..I thought why not.

Wow...Such a silly mistake on my part...I guess you learn from your mistakes and it is true; a picture does say a 1000 words. I'll flip the regulators over and re-try. Thank you for you help everyone. I'll let you guys know what happens.
 

Illum

Flashaholic
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
13,053
Location
Central Florida, USA
o....back when I was playing with LM317s I had the same issue, only I didn't realize it until everything is potted in permanently.

your doing on thing right thus far, you tested your circuit for consistency before going ahead with other add-ons :thumbsup:

Paralleling four regulators should get you 800x4 = 3200ma output if you use the same resistors across the regulators and connecting the Vout on the same bus
 
Last edited:

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
Much much kudos illum for the help and the kind words. Aside from my slipup how does the circuit look?

Each regulator will run two LEDs. I opted to use a 1.8ohm resistor so my curent will be around 700 ma. Does this all make sense to yea?
 

Carbon2010

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
51
So just to makesure how can I test the voltage and current output with my meter before I plug an led onto it?
 

Illum

Flashaholic
Joined
Apr 29, 2006
Messages
13,053
Location
Central Florida, USA
The easiest way you can repair it is flipping the chips backwords, where Vout is now in place of the existing Adj. If you mounting the heatsink with epoxy then....depending on the amount of overhead space it might be better to stand the chips up, exposing more surface area for passive air convection to those heatsinks.

Much much kudos illum for the help and the kind words. Aside from my slipup how does the circuit look?

Each regulator will run two LEDs. I opted to use a 1.8ohm resistor so my curent will be around 700 ma. Does this all make sense to yea?

yep

circuit looks great! I would have never considered the use of solid copper as conducting bridges...mine would have jumper wires traversing across the perf board.

I'm not sure about the LM338 but some power supplies have a different reading between load and no load. That is, if there's an open circuit on the output end, it may give you erratic results. For much complicated power supplies, an open circuit on the output end will fry its electronics, not sure how this works. I can only see how this may happen if the circuit is closed then suddenly opened, where the output capacitors could dump its stored power back to the IC.

What multimeter do you have?
Some digital multimeters have more than one voltage selection as well as current selection...in addition to three ports for probes instead of two.
If I know what multimeter you use I can walk you though it easier

For basic understanding of meters, measuring volts you would parallel your multimeter with some type of a load, where you will measure the potential without the majority of the output current rushing through it.. Measuring current is exact opposite, the meter is wires in-line, or in series with your load, where the only path for current to go is through your multimeter.

For other noteworthy things to consider adding on to your generously wide board... Good for reference, or you can just skip it...your choice.
Some of the stuff down here originates directly from my own sketchbooks back when I used LM317 almost anywhere that needed a cheap point of load current regulated supply.

Measuring power loss [or heat output] of the LM338 use
Code:
P = (Vin - Vload) x I
P = Power loss
Vin = supply voltage
Vload = voltage consumed by your output end
I = current
you noted that you will be wiring two LEDs in series and you waqnt to drive them at 800ma.
LEDs are current regulated creatures, depending on the current applied the Vf will vary as a function [close to a parabola] with current. Say if your using white CREE XREs, the Voltage input is 3.3V at 350ma but will shift to 3.5V when driven at 700ma. There will be slight changes between batches but this is just illustrative.

Suppose you are using two XREs, you would go and pull up the datasheet to see what the draft looks like. In this case, while the typical forward voltage [or Vf] to the LED is 3.3V the Vf is in actuality 3.7V at 800ma

Okay, now you can solve your power loss

The "differential = 2V" part means at minimum the regulator will consume 2V, and its primarily used to solve for minimum power input. In this case you are using 12V, which might be a tad too big a value to promote minimum heat output

Two LEDs in series:
3.7V as Vf [learned from datasheet, each LED is different]
3.7V x 2 = 7.4V
2V differential exists on the LM338, now add that to it
7.4V + 2V = 9.4V, at a 9.4V input the regulator will incur minimum power loss

Where you are with 12V exists that
12-9.4 = 2.6V excess
Excess voltage [2.6V] multiplied by 0.8A of current will contribute an additional 2.08W of power loss.
Code:
  P = [12V – (3.7V x 2)] x 0.8A
  P = [4.6V] x 0.8A 
  P = 3.68W
3.68 here represent total power loss for each LM338 in this configuration, noting that 2.08W is from excess voltage applied. By reducing your input voltage, you could have effectively eliminated approximately [2.08/3.68=0.5652] 57% of the power loss we see here.

Choosing your heatsink...in this case you would have wanted a heatsink capable of at minimum dissipating 5W of heat, and depending on whether or not the device is enclosed, you might want much bugger heatsinks

you've got current adjustment covered, so I'll omit it here

looks like you've got the resistor power rating for the adj pin covered as well
Code:
P = UI
P = Power across the Resistor
U = 1.25V for the LM338/317
I = desired current output
This is the power that ill travel through the resistor

Code:
Pd = I^2 x R
Pd = Power disspiated
I = current across resistor
R = resistance value
Pd = (0.8)^2 x 1.6
Pd = 1.024W
this value is the power that's dissipated from the resistor

At minimum use an at least 10% higher power value for resistors, I use 25% or more...resistors are cheap, but some values may not be as common as others. A 1/4W resistor jolted with 1/4W of heat will actual light up like a toaster, a 1W carbon composition resistor jolted with 1W will actually burst into flames:faint:

Also...be sure to add some capacitors to your LM338s for stability
read though this segment of the datasheet
External Capacitors
An input bypass capacitor is recommended. A 0.1 µF disc or 1 µF solid tantalum on the input is suitable input bypassing for almost all applications. The device is more sensitive to the absence of input bypassing when adjustment or output capacitors are used but the above values will eliminate the possiblity of problems.
The adjustment terminal can be bypassed to ground on the LM138 to improve ripple rejection. This bypass capacitor prevents ripple from being amplified as the output voltage is increased. With a 10 µF bypass capacitor 75 dB ripple rejection is obtainable at any output level. Increases over 20 µF do not appreciably improve the ripple rejection at frequencies above 120 Hz. If the bypass capacitor is used, it is sometimes necessary to include protection diodes to prevent the capacitor from discharging through internal low current paths and damaging the device.
In general, the best types of capacitors to use are solid tantalum. Solid tantalum capacitors have low impedance even at high frequencies. Depending upon capacitor construction, it takes about 25 µF in aluminum electrolytic to equal 1 µF solid tantalum at high frequencies. Ceramic capacitors are also good at high frequencies; but some types have a large decrease in capacitance at frequencies around 0.5 MHz. For this reason, 0.01 µF disc may seem to work better than a 0.1 µF disc as a bypass.
Although the LM138 is stable with no output capacitors, like any feedback circuit, certain values of external capacitance can cause excessive ringing. This occurs with values between 500 pF and 5000 pF. A 1 µF solid tantalum (or 25 µF aluminum electrolytic) on the output swamps this effect and insures stability.
basically...you'll need something like this
Electrolytic caps are used for low frequency filtering of power due to their slow response times, high frequency filtering is facilitated by tantalum capacitors.
Here's some of the caps the datasheet talked about [your only going to need one electrolytic, one "red" tantalum, and one regular "yellow" tantalum]

left to right: Electrolytic, tantalum, poly-film, ceramic, disc

After reading the datasheet you should have something like this


caps make things stable, caps needs diodes to protect what your trying to keep stable
Then it gets interesting, recall what I said about a sudden open circuit on the output end damaging chips? well...you might want to plan for that in the event one of your LED chains burn out and opens the circuit.

capacitors can provide an exceptional amount of current within a very small time...
the datasheet warns this
Most 20 µF capacitors have low enough internal series resistance to deliver 20A spikes when shorted. Although the surge is short, there is enough energy to damage parts of the IC.
and provides a diagram of where to put diodes where that power will flow through instead of forcing its way through the IC
I redrew it below. IN400x diodes are general purpose diodes that are found in many places, like radioshack, etc, but if your interested I can supply you with sources for these parts



5 additional components per IC will populate that perf board in no time =P
 
Last edited:

jar3ds

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
1,988
Location
USA
i don't mean to steal the thread.... but how do you calculate what watt rating of a resistor you need? I understand how to calc the actual resistor but not its watt rating...
 

Latest posts

Top