Christmas Road Trip, never driven in snowy areas, advice please

Illum

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We will be making a christmas drive to the Grand Canyons from Florida sometime around the 20th of December and visiting national parks along the way. We are going as a family of four, loaded with supplies in a 2008 Hondai Santa Fe, FWD only. I have no experience driving in snowing areas, where there may be ice. My dad, my brother, and me will be taking turns driving.

Only thing I know is antifreeze for windshield wipers and cat litter for traction...but thats it. The weather looks less than nifty but all the reservations were made months before hand and and road/traffic conditions have already been printed, tacked, and highlighted. We will stay mainly on Interstate 10 until we hit New Mexico. Weather reports yesterday mentioned snow in the Houston area and places above, we expect to touch snowy areas approximately 4 days into the trip.

I am limited in my choice of lights, but what I'll be in my bag is a two E2Ls, two L4-MCEs [and a loaded SC3, don't expect to use the MCEs], and two M6s, one for MN15 and one for KL6 as well as a waterproof strobelight. Since I normally use rechargeables at home I have no additional spares on me and too late in the season to order:green:

Do I need to invest in snow tires? the current set has been runniing for a little over 10K miles with essentially no wear.

Any advice from those experienced northerners might be a lifesaver :grin2:
 

mikeinrancho

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I'm not gonna be much help, since I'm from So. Cal and have little snow driving experience - so why would I reply? But, I went to the Grand Canyon last year, through Williams, AZ, then on to Moab and then Arches and Bryce and Zion the week between Christmas and New Years. We were in a 4WD Xterra (stock tires - semi all terrain) and never once had a problem on the roads - which were mostly clear for us anyway. We did venture off onto non-plowed roads and still had no problems, but that was with 4WD. The point of my post is that that trip was one of the best road trips we have ever been on - and we go off twice a year. Beautiful country, you are going to love it. We had been to all those places before, but never in the winter with all the snow. Temperatures did get down below zero - never above freezing - but it was fantastic. We are actually thinking about going on the same route again in 3 weeks. My advice - don't drive at night - you'll miss awesome scenery and the roads hide all their nasty stuff in the dark.

Anyway... back on topic.
 

matrixshaman

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I spent a lot of time in snow country up North and as a serious skier in the past I have seen a lot of new snow drivers having problems. Forget snow tires IMO they do little to help and will be bad for general driving in non-snow conditions. Get chains for your front tires if you have front wheel drive. Learn how to put them on ahead of time and don't hesitate to put them on as soon as you start slipping. There can be ice under snow and black ice is something you really don't want to experience. GO SLOW is primary when things start snowing. If it starts getting real heavy try to find a place to get off the road where you can hang out a while - fast food places, motel or whatever. There may be other crazies trying to continue and you need to remind yourself you are not experienced nor crazy. I've driven everything from rear wheel drive cars and 4WD to motorcycles to 18 wheelers in snow and it's really not something you want to take chances with. Make sure you know the weather conditions - maybe a portable weather radio and have a map or GPS unit so you can plan where to get off the road ahead of time if things start to get really bad. I'd take some space blankets along in case you really get caught off guard or end up in a traffic jam on a major freeway where they have stopped traffic due to bad weather. A good emergency pack with other items would be very smart too.
A couple other thoughts - if you find you are suddenly in heavy snow on a freeway and can get behind an 18 wheeler and stay back a safe distance this is a fairly good strategy. The trucker can see further ahead than cars and he also knows he cannot stop as fast as a car so unless he is crazy and going too fast it's a good vehicle to stay behind. The other thing about that strategy is that if he should hit anything it's not likely he will be suddenly stopped due to the trucks inertia (most trucks are loaded and full loads mean 80,000 pounds) so you'll still have time to stop. If you are behind a car that runs into something you may not have a lot of time to stop. Good luck and be safe.
 
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T0RN4D0

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Be very very carefull without snow tyres, if you hit some uncleaned roads. The threads on winter tyres are designed to clean themselves, and offer much better performance on snow. I don't know how the roads are cleaned in the US, but here main road are plowed, salted and sanded when there is snow, so you can pull it off with normal tyres but you must be carefull, easy on the turns and be avare that you wont be able to stop very fast (safety distance).

Maybe you could buy some tyre chains tho, if you expect to hit any heavy snow. Those should be alot cheaper then a set of winter tyres, and for the few miles you might need it, they will probably get the job done.
 

LED_Thrift

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The advice given above about going slow is definately very good advice. It covers a multitude of sins.

If your FWD has "All-Season" tires, [preferably radials] you should be fine in all but the deepest snow. Tires have an "M & S" rating moulded right into the sidewall if they are rated for mud & snow, so it's easy for you to check your tires. It's not uncommon for tires to be "M & S" rated even though they aren't "snow tires".

Good luck on your trip. Watching Ken Burn's series on the National Parks has given me the itch to get to those western parks also.
 

Cataract

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I'm from Canada (Montreal) and work on the road, so I know quite a bit about driving in the snow. On the other hand, I don't have any idea how conditions might look like in the region you're going, but my guess is it won't likely be much different or worse than here.

Good snow tires do make a big difference in snow. Where ice is concerned, the difference will vary greatly from one brand to the next and one model to the next. If you're not spending a whole season there, you could go by with a brand new set of all-season tires (but snow and ice tires are still the best). Summer tires are really not recommendable and your tiress sound like they have a hard sole, which meand they might not be very recommendable. Chains might work for snow, but won't help on ice.

Even if the name suggests it, snow and ice tires are not impervious. They only make it better to a certain degree in snow, but allow you more traction on ice (even if just a bit, which is usually enough to be able to get somewhere without being stuck). Driving in loose snow isn't all that bad; just reduce your speed and give yourself extra time to stop or to slow down. there are a variety of tactics for emergency breaking in snow, which vary greatly on the situation and the type of snow. You should be able to find something on the internet with a little research.

ALWAYS watch out for intersection at stops and street lights: too many people lock up their wheels (or spin them), which causes ice to form exactly where you need to stop. My rule of thumb is to slow down real early, and come to the intersection so slow that I know that even with my wheels lock up, I'll stop in time.

Ice is the worst ennemy. It sometines is very hard to judge if there is ice and how slippery it is if you are driving in a straight line and suddenly hit a patch. Driving in a straight line doesn't give you any judgment of how slippery it is. To differenciate snow from snow that was packed into ice is relatively simple: if it reflects any light, it is ice (unless the snow has melted) and you need to be more than extra careful. If the road seems smoother than usual (you can't see any dimples) you're on a skating rink grade ice patch. IF the road is totally black although you're headlights are pretty strong, that is the worst of all: black ice.

The smoother the ice surface, the more deadly (breaking or turning have almost no effect). Always keep your cool and always drive much slower in these conditions. If breaking hard does nothing, break only enough to slow down. Pumping the brakes will help on rougher ice patches, but not by much.

The BEST EVER strategy to drive past an ice patch is to keep your tires on the side of the road where there actually is snow (if there is any).Snow has much better traction, even if it feels like you need more gas to keep your speed constant.

One trick I use every now and then, when there's noboy around, is to brake and see how much braking I can use before the wheels lock up. That always gives me an idea of how bad it is and how slow I should be going.

CURVES: these are the times where you should drive even slowest if there is any ice at all. Once you start sliding sideways, you'll only stop on a hard object, or with any luck, on a snow patch or snow bank.

OTHER PEOPLE: as any human, every single year it starts to snow, people act like they have never ever seen it. Some drive like it's summer, others drive like they just lost a wheel. Keep your distances clear on all sides, you can't trust anyone. Following a truck IS generally a good Idea, not so much because the driver can see further, but there is a very good chance HE knows what to expect. On the plus side, if there IS a pile-up ahead, he just might open up more room for you to stop.

ACCESSORIES: have the Anti-freeze in your radiator checked so it will not freeze at the temperatures you might face. Buy anti-freeze windshield washer and always have a spare bottle in the trunk. Fill up your windshield washer reservoir every time you put gas or even more often. Get a cheap ice scraper and make sure you have good visibility on all sides, including mirrors and remove all snow accumulation from your car before you go out there... there is nothing worse than those *******s that look like a moving cloud of invisibility, spreading haze to all around.


There isn't much snow here yet, so I'm guessing that conditions are even better down south, but so far the snow we've had here has turned into ice really fast (Ive seen one idiot eat the curb on both sides of the highway exit at 30 MPH). Since I have no idea what you'll be facing, you should call to your destination and ask what to expect at this time of year. Maybe they're not expecting anything more than melting snow... who knows...

Driving in the winter isn't deadly if you have a little common sense and drive carefully. The biggest danger is those who don't...
Hope this helps.
 

Illum

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I'm from Canada (Montreal) and work on the road, so I know quite a bit about driving in the snow.

just what I wanted to hear:)

ALWAYS watch out for intersection at stops and street lights: too many people lock up their wheels (or spin them), which causes ice to form exactly where you need to stop. My rule of thumb is to slow down real early, and come to the intersection so slow that I know that even with my wheels lock up, I'll stop in time.

:thanks: for the advice

Ice is the worst ennemy. It sometines is very hard to judge if there is ice and how slippery it is if you are driving in a straight line and suddenly hit a patch. Driving in a straight line doesn't give you any judgment of how slippery it is. To differenciate snow from snow that was packed into ice is relatively simple: if it reflects any light, it is ice (unless the snow has melted) and you need to be more than extra careful. If the road seems smoother than usual (you can't see any dimples) you're on a skating rink grade ice patch. IF the road is totally black although you're headlights are pretty strong, that is the worst of all: black ice.

The BEST EVER strategy to drive past an ice patch is to keep your tires on the side of the road where there actually is snow (if there is any).Snow has much better traction, even if it feels like you need more gas to keep your speed constant.

So the best way is to drive halfway on the shoulder where one tires churning snow and occasionally snake around to break the straight line?:confused:

OTHER PEOPLE: as any human, every single year it starts to snow, people act like they have never ever seen it. Some drive like it's summer, others drive like they just lost a wheel.

okay, now I'm really scared :duck:


The point of my post is that that trip was one of the best road trips we have ever been on

We've driven to Connecticut several times, once to Indiana, once to Texas...but we've never taken road trips in the winter

matrixshaman, we're trying to be as prepared as we can on stop-overs so that hopefully won't be an issue. now highway closures and finding detours might be an issue. Dad says not to worry but I'm less optimistic on that.

How slow is slow if your on an interstate? Like driving in rain, too slow could actually be dangerous.

heat loss is what I'm most concerned with. Mom's sensitivity to cold is stronger than the rest of us, I have space blankets on hand so thats not an issue.

A couple other thoughts - if you find you are suddenly in heavy snow on a freeway and can get behind an 18 wheeler and stay back a safe distance this is a fairly good strategy. The trucker can see further ahead than cars and he also knows he cannot stop as fast as a car so unless he is crazy and going too fast it's a good vehicle to stay behind. The other thing about that strategy is that if he should hit anything it's not likely he will be suddenly stopped due to the trucks inertia (most trucks are loaded and full loads mean 80,000 pounds) so you'll still have time to stop. If you are behind a car that runs into something you may not have a lot of time to stop. Good luck and be safe.

Good strategy indeed!

Finding tire chains in FL might pose an issue:thinking:
I'll see if I can consult some mudding friends where to find such things in stores
 
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MorePower

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It's really pretty simple:

1. Drive slowly if you aren't comfortable with road conditions.
2. Don't try to make sudden, sharp turns if you can help it.

All 3 trim levels of the 2008 Santa Fe have the 3 most important features someone who is not used to driving in snowy conditions should have; ABS (helps you stop), traction control (helps you get moving), and stability control (helps prevent spinouts).

Just take it easy if the road gets slippery and you should be fine.

I've driven in Wisconsin winters for many years; this is the first year I'll have a car that has any of those features. I finally have ABS, but no traction or stability control. Haven't crashed yet, knock on wood.


Here's a link to various state laws as they pertain to tire chain usage.
 
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jamesmtl514

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Some really good advice so far. If you need to pay special attention to anyones thoughts it's those of a Montrealer, (Maritimer's too). We have some ridiculous weather here and have learned to cope with it.

As mentioned; drive safe and stay alert. Don't be scared to pull over if you feel you're unprepared for the drive ahead. It's a lot more comfortable to be in a warm motel room than in the ditch.

Also don't be too scared, millions of people drive on this white stuff daily and are fine. Have a great trip.
 

sawlight

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All season radials are about as good as anything anymore, unless you get uber agressive tires. A few highways are closed or closing, and several are requiring snow chains, I'd recomend a set if you are leaving soon, this storm should blow over in the next 48 hours.
Space blankets are good, I like flanel myself, take water, plenty of water, snacks or protien bars, just enough for 24hrs is good.
SLOW SLOW AND SLOWER!! Watch, you wil have people pass you like you are sitting still, you will think you can drive that fast, until you pass them siting in the ditch a mile down the road! Don't get in a hurry, you will get there when you get there, bu alive that way! Following a semi can be good, but some of them even like to go faster than I do!
Don't put much faith in the ABS, you will still skid and slip and spin and put it in the ditch jus as fast as anybody else!If you start to skid while breaking and know you can't stop, let off the brakes and point it in a safe direction then try again. Don't "ride out" a skid keeping the brakes locked up, let up and try to steer the car.
4wd can be nice, but it just gets you going faster and makes you feel safer. It wont help you stop any better!
Go slow, take your time and if you don't like it, get off the road!
 

yazzur

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"How slow is slow if your on an interstate? Like driving in rain, too slow could actually be dangerous."

You can't really drive too slow if you're courteous - If there are a bunch of cars lined up behind you, find a place to turn off.

I've been driving my whole life in snow belts, 5 or 6 months of snow every year for 40 year. A couple hints: ALWAYS turn your lights on in snowy conditions. Signal way in advance of a turn. Brake, turn, and accelerate gently. I was taught to drive in the snow like you've got a raw egg under your foot.

It's not bad driving in snow - just take your time - hey, it's a vacation, right?
 

Launch Mini

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change your windshield washer fluid to a winter rated ( ie below freezing).
You will need plenty of this for the slush thrown from other cars passing.
Might even want to take a spare jug along.
Take some "wet wipes", and when you stop, clean your headlights with them. Not a bad idea to do your tail lights too. See & Be Seen.
Remember AWD does not help you stop in the snow. Only helps you get going.
 

stevep

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Get some chains!
I was driving in snow yesterday and the Hwy patrol closed the road to vehicles without chains or 4WD/snow tires.

I was driving my mom's car with summer tires and no chains,the road was drivable.The HP closed the road because they have to deal with all the people that are poor drivers.

You need to be prepared to be caught on a road that gets closed.I don't think that much of space blankets.An opened rectangular sleeping bag would be much better for your passengers. I would have some source of heat,like candles in a coffee can.

Don't run the gas tank low in snow country,being able to idle the engine for heat may be important.
Know when to change your schedule for safety.You should stop driving early enough to be able to get a room before the all book up,that happen quickly when the road gets closed.
It starts getting slick in the afternoon on a sunny day.Black ice is dangerous,a car can spin into your lane.
Good planning and common sense will give you a safe trip.
 

Mjolnir

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I'm not really sure why so many people are suggesting chains... Interstate 10 is almost as far south as you can get in the US. I live in the Northeast, and I rarely ever see anyone with chains, except for snow plows. All weather tires should be fine; I doubt that your Hyundai SUV is equipped with higher performance summer tires. I seriously doubt that Texas or New Mexico will have any serious (for around here anyways) amounts of snow. It seems like you should only be seeing a couple of inches.

I see that people are saying you should always go slow, but this isn't the case 100% of the time. If you need to get up a steep road with snow on it, you need to go fast. If you don't, then you simple won't make it up the hill and will slide back down. Going too fast uphill isn't an issue, since gravity will slow you down very quickly.(of course, you shouldn't go fast around turns though). Again, I doubt you will see many steep roads that are covered with snow, so this might not be an issue, especially that far south.
If your wheels spin with rear wheel drive, you will fishtail. If they spin with front wheel drive, you might not notice it if you haven't driven in snow before. You should start up slow to reduce wheelspin, or you won't be able to start up at all (if there is enough snow).
You want to avoid locking the wheels or skidding, as this will make it essentially impossible to turn and avoid anything. Stop gradually and slowly so you have the time and traction to avoid potential obstacles.
 

Kestrel

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  • Forget snow tires IMO they do little to help and will be bad for general driving in non-snow conditions.
  • Get chains for your front tires if you have front wheel drive. Learn how to put them on ahead of time and don't hesitate to put them on as soon as you start slipping.
  • GO SLOW is primary when things start snowing. If it starts getting real heavy try to find a place to get off the road where you can hang out a while - fast food places, motel or whatever. There may be other crazies trying to continue and you need to remind yourself you are not experienced nor crazy.
  • I'd take some space blankets along in case you really get caught off guard or end up in a traffic jam on a major freeway where they have stopped traffic due to bad weather. A good emergency pack with other items would be very smart too.
All of the above is good. I grew up in Alaska then moved to New Mexico - heavy chains have gotten me out of very tough spots but they are brutal - much slimmer cable chains are the way to go IMO for for difficult conditions on highways.

Go slow and don't be afraid to take some time off when the conditions are very bad. Allocate an extra day so you can 'spend' it & not travel, to avoid the worst driving if necessary. Take extra books to read and a good thermos.

This is a good opportunity to create a survival pack to stash in the car - a daypack containing extra clothing, energy bars, water, etc. Worst comes to worst, you've got the capability & tools to hike out of an emergency.

Take care & have fun,
 

John_Galt

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First of all, relax. Driving when you're stressed out is just going to make the trip worse, snow or not.

My advice... I don't drive, but both of my parents have drilled this into my head since I started paying attention to what they do...
Drive slowly. If you would be driving slowly in good weather, drive even slower in bad.
Be careful and pay attention. Be aware of other vehicles around you, especially large trucks.
If you do not feel comfortable driving somewhere, do not feel bad pulling over to the side of the road and trying to find another route.

Pack some emergency supplies into the PASSENGER compartment. Not the trunk. If you get stuck, you may not be able to access the trunk for a variety of reasons. Pack at least two blankets, one for the front passengers, and one for the ones in the back. If you think your route would take you along a road that is not heavily traveled, maybe pack some of those heater packs for gloves and feet. A little food and drink would also help.
 

Illum

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SLOW SLOW AND SLOWER!! Watch, you wil have people pass you like you are sitting still, you will think you can drive that fast, until you pass them siting in the ditch a mile down the road! Don't get in a hurry, you will get there when you get there, bu alive that way! Following a semi can be good, but some of them even like to go faster than I do!

Down here patience is a virtue, something tells me up there patience is an inner tube

I'm not really sure why so many people are suggesting chains... Interstate 10 is almost as far south as you can get in the US.

Its best to be overprepared

I see that people are saying you should always go slow, but this isn't the case 100% of the time. If you need to get up a steep road with snow on it, you need to go fast. If you don't, then you simple won't make it up the hill and will slide back down. Going too fast uphill isn't an issue, since gravity will slow you down very quickly.(of course, you shouldn't go fast around turns though). Again, I doubt you will see many steep roads that are covered with snow, so this might not be an issue, especially that far south.

aye, there's no severe increase or decreases in altitude that could facilitate an incline as such, does it does remind me of visiting SC

If they spin with front wheel drive, you might not notice it if you haven't driven in snow before. You should start up slow to reduce wheelspin, or you won't be able to start up at all (if there is enough snow).
You want to avoid locking the wheels or skidding, as this will make it essentially impossible to turn and avoid anything. Stop gradually and slowly so you have the time and traction to avoid potential obstacles.

Good info, :thanks:

dad's thought is that major highways that are populated by alot of cars there's a lesser chance we'll actually get stuck in snow.

It's not bad driving in snow - just take your time - hey, it's a vacation, right?

well, the issue with booking hotels early is giving yourself some deadlines to work with. before grand canyon there's going be be a couple national parks we'll be in, but we'll end up in Grand Canyon on Christmas...or bust:)

If you would be driving slowly in good weather, drive even slower in bad.
Be careful and pay attention. Be aware of other vehicles around you, especially large trucks.
If you do not feel comfortable driving somewhere, do not feel bad pulling over to the side of the road and trying to find another route.

Pack some emergency supplies into the PASSENGER compartment. Not the trunk. If you get stuck, you may not be able to access the trunk for a variety of reasons. Pack at least two blankets, one for the front passengers, and one for the ones in the back. If you think your route would take you along a road that is not heavily traveled, maybe pack some of those heater packs for gloves and feet. A little food and drink would also help.

My driving habits sucks...
I'm 22 years old, but I had a classmate who was driving behind me and later commented that he thought I was an old man pushing on the gas pedal with the cane...aka too slow for his comfort. I get 21mpg out of an SUV, I'm not complaining:D

Good thinking on the storage measures,

:wow: I need to jot all this down
We're scheduled to depart in two weeks. I'll have to finish my final exams and get the car in for an inspection/oil change before we can start loading
 
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mdocod

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If you are lucky enough (or unlucky enough, depending on your point of view) to actually see snow on the road on your trip that far south. My recomendation is to find a mostly empty parking lot somewhere and give yourself a 5-10 minute crash course in low friction driving. Force yourself into a few low speed side-ways skids with the hand-brake and learn how to turn INTO that skid and control the direction of the vehicle. Do this until you can reliably feel the point where the rear tires re-gain traction, and you are instinctively steering "out" of that skid when those tires grab traction so as to avoid an over-correction. Getting the feel for this type of skid alone will cover a large majority of situations that may arise. The other thing you want to experiment with, is to lock up all 4 wheels (or try to, you have ABS, so this may not be possible). Jab the breaks while cruising along in that open parking lot and see how your vehicle with it's ABS is going to treat the situation. You've likely never had the ABS system kick in, and if that's the case, experiencing it for the first time could startle you in the heat of the moment. Many ABS systems will put a physical pulsating through the brake pedal as you try to apply it. You want to know what this feels like before it happens in a sticky situation.

Highway driving in slushy icy conditions can lead to unexpected and sudden skids as your tires catch "ruts" created by heavier vehicles (those ruts often start out as slush and snow and then freeze into ice). Your front tires will often have the traction to climb over those ruts but your rear tires will often start sliding along inside the rut, throwing the car into a sideways skid. You need to be ready to steer into that skid somewhat instinctively, and, here's an even tougher one to learn: Use the accelerator, NOT the brakes, to correct for a skid like this. (not always the best idea, but if you are looking out your side window to see where you are going, you have a decision to make, do a 180, maybe 360/540 etc etc, or use the accelerator and try to bring that spin to a stop at 90 degrees).

Chains: No, Avoid chains for long highway trips. Your shocks, ball-joints, tie-rod ends, control arm bushings, and pretty much every bolt and nut holding the car together will thank you. Chains are good for 3 things: rear wheel drive vehicles that must go out on a slick day, mud/snow on back-country trails that are dangerous (cliffs etc) usually on a 4x4, and special built chains for rock crawling.

Cable: Optional, probably unnecessary. You might swing into a wallyworld as you work your way west. You can get Cables at most wall-marts that are in snow-country for pretty cheap.

Front wheel drive sedans and crossovers can, with proper driving technique, (threshold traction driving), operate on almost any major road or highway in the country provided the depth of snow doesn't over-come the clearance of the vehicle by too much. This is without chains or cables. Cables/chains on the front wheels of a front wheel drive will increase the useful accelerating traction on ice/snow/snow-pack to a level very close to that of an all-wheel or 4-wheel drive that does not have cables/chains.

-----

The biggest problem with driving on ice and snow for most people is keeping themselves collected when things don't go according to plan. If you are in the driver seat, remember, until the vehicle comes to a stop, YOU are DRIVING. As much as I love watching people take their hands off the steering wheel and cover their eyes while they scream bloody murder and pray, I must point out, that this strategy does not usually generate positive results.

-Eric
 

mdocod

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speaking of low friction driving... The whole region here is frozen over... I'm going to go deliver pizzas now :)
 
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