Looking for real time Tactical Light Shootout

I guess this is going to be more at LEO's (First responser/SWAT etc.) The reason for this post...Hmm..Where do I start.

The threat (realization) of a active shooter is no joke (either one person or more than one). I talked to a couple of co-workers of mine in ERT(SWAT) and when you ask them about different flashlights available..their answer is "theres something other than Surefire?!" :duh2::duh2: Please dont get me wrong - the reviews here are priceless and beyond awesome...But I wanna see how the light do in extrodiary circumstances. Real world testing on mounted lights on Patrol rifles and pistols in active shooter situations. Active shooter situations and hostage situations are quite different(some people dont know). The enviorments that we are going to walk into in one of these situations are dowright shitty (Columbine). As an example - someone burned dinner and you now have a smoke filled house. Or, go to the most crappiest shooting range around your house on the buisiest day and see how much smoke gunfire brings out. In the situation that Im talking about, IED's have gone off (Improvised explosive devices), hallway lights have exploded, the fire extinguisher system is on due to the explosions, etc. Hallways are covered in smoke..

This is what Im looking for -

• What light and mount you have on what type of weapon (handgun or rifle)
• DO you switch lights in different assumed conditions?
• WHat light holds up better after time? (AR15's can take a toll on lights, switches going bad, etc)
• if you use a tape switch, which ones you like/dislike and WHY (too sensitive/not sensitive enough)
• If you changed lights on your weapon, WHY? (head of light too big for room clearing? I keep on bumping light around corners?
• which light do you prefer/not prefer with throw/flood for room/hallway clearing?
• what light weighs down your rifle too much for your taste? (I have DD lite rails on my rifle. I wouldnt want to put the heaviest mount and light on it just to weigh my rifle down again would I?

Like I said - I know you guys have beat down most flashlights on your reviews but this is a little different take on it..:thumbsup: I just ordered the mount to put my Olight M20 Warrior on it..

Early training and duty carry setup: Night vision monocular and handgun with X-300.

First formal "active shooter" Simunition scenario: Borrowed a Inova X-3 for use with Simunition handgun because I wasn't sure my Surefire X-300 would be approved for use in the agency scenario. Sim M-4 rifle didn't have a light.

Private active shooter training course: Used night vision monocular and a rifle with a red dot but no light. Used verbal directions to put other officers on target. When they illuminated the "active shooter" we put live fire rounds on it. Instructor's (LAPD SWAT retired) rifle: ACOG, multiple Surefire lights, including an X-400.

Night vision operator course: Used rifle with ACOG with a Viridian light/green laser in conjunction with night vision monocular. Used laser/monocular at long range, light/laser at short range. Most common setup/recommended by instructor (special military unit, retired): dual tube NVG, Colt M-4 with Eotech/Aimpoint and military issue IR laser/illuminator and white light with NO tapeswitch.

Current nightly carry: Colt M-4 with ACOG, TLR-2 light/laser and night vision monocular. Handgun with X-300 as a backup weapon.

This is specific to my situation and training.

My Department recently had a mutli-casualty active shooter incident in a night club (it's not always in a school). Lots of drunk party people, thugs, smoke, noise, etc.

We cleared the building using established tactics. My UPR (AR-style patrol rifle) has a simple SF two cell incan (P60) with a combo pressure switch. It worked flawlessly, and had no "tactical" issues. It may not be the latest-and-greatest, but it worked fine, and the incan bulb may have been an asset in the smoke filled club.

As for durability: The rifle has several hundred rounds through it, been banged around, in-out of patrol cars, etc, and the light has never failed. I get supplied with SF's proprietary "223" that's really two SF123's shrink wrapped together with a foam buffer between the cells. I doubt separate 123's would make any difference as there really isn't too much recoil with an AR style rifle.

Lightraven: That sounds like your in a specialized unit..

We have a active shooter program specific for the first responders who are going to be there first. Its aimed towards situations where specialized units aren't there yet or haven't had the time to set up and you have to go in now..

We have done some training in abandoned buildings/schools/hospitals. UNFORTUNATELY, the simulation guns we had didn't have lights either..

How do both your lights handle smoke? Is there a lot of reflection? Can you see the beam and that's it?

Is anyone running a dual light setup?

dano said:

My Department recently had a mutli-casualty active shooter incident in a night club (it's not always in a school). Lots of drunk party people, thugs, smoke, noise, etc.

We cleared the building using established tactics. My UPR (AR-style patrol rifle) has a simple SF two cell incan (P60) with a combo pressure switch. It worked flawlessly, and had no "tactical" issues. It may not be the latest-and-greatest, but it worked fine, and the incan bulb may have been an asset in the smoke filled club.

As for durability: The rifle has several hundred rounds through it, been banged around, in-out of patrol cars, etc, and the light has never failed. I get supplied with SF's proprietary "223" that's really two SF123's shrink wrapped together with a foam buffer between the cells. I doubt separate 123's would make any difference as there really isn't too much recoil with an AR style rifle.

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Now that's what I'm talking about (rifle equip we can go forever on) but the durability/usability of lights is what I'm looking for. DO you think an LED would have hurt your ability to light up front?

Neo9710 said:

Lightraven: That sounds like your in a specialized unit..

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Just a patrol officer at the moment. Specialized unit of one--me.

I've got a lot of experience with fog but not smoke. Again, I use night vision extensively, so I don't have much opinion about one light versus another. However, I got rid of the green laser after seeing it in fog. It looked like the death star beam and I needed something less conspicuous. Even the red laser can become visible with enough smoke/water in the air. Any light in heavy fog/smoke is worse than darkness. At least ambient light won't give you away.

I tried my TLR-2 and X-300 on my rifle. The additional light wasn't so dramatic as to be necessary, for my purposes. It got rid of the barrel shadow at nine o'clock and gave me a little more brightness, but it wasn't something I had to have. The former LAPD SWAT instructor who runs three lights and ACOG on his rifle is all about maximum light.

Three lights? Wow..I don't have ACOG money! (-:

I switch between patrol and another duty assignment. A bunch of street officers that I directly supervise got into this conversation about lighting, armor (for rifle fire). So, hence, this topic. My SWAT guys were running the class and they were shooting off shotgun blasts (blanks of course in an abandoned/closed Children's hospital) inside to mess with our heads..
Close to life like as we could get it..smoke everywhere...

Neo9710 said:

DO you think an LED would have hurt your ability to light up front?

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Yep, I think so. LED's are notorious for glare, especially in fog, and mist.

I keep Paraclete level III rifle plates in my POV and put it on my GOV passenger seat at work. I train with it as often as possible.

One of our officers killed an active shooter which is really rare when you think about it. It was the real deal--a guy murdering people with a rifle, including cops, before our guy put him down in a rifle battle.

Have you guys noticed any appreciable differences, with regard to smoke or fog, when using a floody light like a kl4 or a light with a more concentrated beam, like a kx2c or e2dl?

dano said:

Yep, I think so. LED's are notorious for glare, especially in fog, and mist.

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I thought Warm/Neutral tints in LED's reduced/eliminated this problem?

~Brian

Solscud007 said:

Have you guys noticed any appreciable differences, with regard to smoke or fog, when using a floody light like a kl4 or a light with a more concentrated beam, like a kx2c or e2dl?

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I find lights like the E2DL work better in smoky situations. Floody lights don't tend to do much either then light up all the smoke in the room and not the target you are pointing to. I have used all sorts of lights on AR style rifles and none of them have failed me. Especially not SureFires. My favorite weapons light is the SureFire G2Z w/ a Q5 drop in and a pressure switch attached. I have the light mounted under the front sights. Dont remember the brand of the mount, picked it up used off a buddy of mine. Its a quick release mount though. That setup is both light and very durable. Both the mount and light are polymer. The setup doesn't affect my swing rate that much, and that is important in a tactical sitution. I don't have this setup anymore as I gave it to my friend as a gift for his duty in afghan right now. I will be purchasing the same setup again very soon, but in green this time :laughing:

How much lumens is the Q5? I imagine that the Malkoff would be better. However I think that too much light could hurt in a smoky/foggy situation. Kinda like using high beams in a car driving thru fog. The high beams get reflected off the fog and you can blind your self haha.

Im wondering how my Olight will do in smoke....Does/has anyone run a filter on their lights for smoke?

I imagine "fog lights" on cars will probably work for flashlights as well. many foglights are often yellow. I dont know why but supposedly yellow cuts thru fog better.

Hey Lightraven! I would like to get ahold of you and ask some questions that I think relate to your expertise. It involves night vision. Could you please message me back so we can talk? Just signed up for this site so I'm not sure how to message you. Thanks!!!

ScientistAllie said:

Hey Lightraven! I would like to get ahold of you and ask some questions that I think relate to your expertise. It involves night vision. Could you please message me back so we can talk? Just signed up for this site so I'm not sure how to message you. Thanks!!!

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Lightraven hasn't been active on the forum for the past nine years, so I'm guessing that he won't see your message.

ScientistAllie said:

Hey Lightraven! I would like to get ahold of you and ask some questions that I think relate to your expertise. It involves night vision. Could you please message me back so we can talk? Just signed up for this site so I'm not sure how to message you. Thanks!!!

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Well, bumping a decade-old thread is not the preferred option :ironic:

Dave D said:

Lightraven hasn't been active on the forum for the past nine years, so I'm guessing that he won't see your message.

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That too.

Closing this, thanks.