Maximum Lumen Possibilities in a Single AA Light?

Chroma · Jan 26, 2010

I'm just wondering with current emitters and technology, what is your opinion on the maximum amount of OTF Lumens that can be achieved with a single AA at this time?

Can we assume both what's on the market as well as your own theoretical opinion? Has the ceiling been reached with what's available from 4-7's, nitecore, etc, or can it still be pushed further?

brett09 · Jan 26, 2010

With standard alkalines, or with anything in the AA form factor?

Blades · Jan 26, 2010

Won't it depend on the AA battery? A rechargable battery or an alkaline?

Chroma · Jan 26, 2010

Let's say anything with an AA form factor whether that's rechargeables, lithiums, anything.

I'm asking because AA is my favorite form and I was just wondering if we will ever see anything with a better wow factor than what we have now or will the little AA continue to be the straggler?

Patriot · Jan 26, 2010

It's probably going to be a Quark AA Mini or Maratac AA run on a protected li-ion 14500 battery. The Maratac registers around 190 lumens according to the light meter but the Quark will surely be higher. Neither manufacturer recommends the 14500 being used in these lights. Actually they tell you not to use them. So far, no problems with the Maratac though. I'll have a Quark Mini soon so I'll be testing 14500's in it as well.

bfksc · Jan 26, 2010

Chroma said:
I'm asking because AA is my favorite form and I was just wondering if we will ever see anything with a better wow factor than what we have now or will the little AA continue to be the straggler?

I'm currently working with physicists developing a new technology for emitters that uses quartz deposited silicon triechlomide nano fibers. It has a 1:1 energy matrix that processes all incoming power directly into 3500-4500k light without any loss from heat or unused light outside the daylight range. Initial tests indicate 1,230 lumens from a single CR123 for over 24 hours.

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Just kidding...but improvements keep coming. Just a few months ago LEDs were about 17% less efficient than today. I can see a day when car headlights will be single LED emitters that never burn out, don't glare in oncoming traffic, and provide 10x more light on the road.

GarageBoy · Jan 26, 2010

Patriot said:
It's probably going to be a Quark AA Mini or Maratac AA run on a protected li-ion 14500 battery. The Maratac registers around 190 lumens according to the light meter but the Quark will surely be higher. Neither manufacturer recommends the 14500 being used in these lights. Actually they tell you not to use them. So far, no problems with the Maratac though. I'll have a Quark Mini soon so I'll be testing 14500's in it as well.

Brighter than the full size Quark AA which runs regulated on 1 14500? Or the quark 123^2 head on an AA body running 1x14500

bfksc · Jan 26, 2010

Patriot said:
It's probably going to be a Quark AA Mini or Maratac AA run on a protected li-ion 14500 battery. The Maratac registers around 190 lumens according to the light meter but the Quark will surely be higher. Neither manufacturer recommends the 14500 being used in these lights. Actually they tell you not to use them. So far, no problems with the Maratac though. I'll have a Quark Mini soon so I'll be testing 14500's in it as well.

Why would they say not to use the 14500? It's voltage rating is within spec for the heads, isn't it?

Too bad the 14500 didn't have a higher capacity though...

Ilikeshinythings · Jan 26, 2010

I wonder if it would be possible to use a collimating lens with a high-powered LED in a single AA form torch. I bet you could squeeze some extra lumens out of it and increase throw if you had the right size LED die and the right size collimating lens. I don't know the formulas though. Maybe somebody else could chime in.

Edit: it would almost certainly have to be run on li-ion cell...like energizer E92

OneBigDay · Jan 26, 2010

I have been on a quest for the perfect AA and have yet to find it.

I think the output threshold for the AA format is limited not by the emitters themselves, or even the batteries, but by how to dissipate the heat from these powerful LEDs with such a small material surface to draw the heat out into. The manufacturers aren't going to sell a light that will melt in your hand :laughing:

I have often wondered why the manufacturers don't put more R&D into heatsynchs or more interesting heat transferring methods (like has been happening with computer CPU and Video components for years). They could then turn this into marketing hype and get everyone worked up into a frenzy about the new/better heatsynch...

The more heat you can transfer away from the emitter successfully, the more juice you can give it. That seems to be a particularly good problem in AA format. Sure the reflector is small, but I would think heat is still the biggest obstacle to higher output.

Warp · Jan 26, 2010

OneBigDay said:
I think the output threshold for the AA format is limited not by the emitters themselves, or even the batteries, but by how to dissipate the heat from these powerful LEDs with such a small material surface to draw the heat out into. The manufacturers aren't going to sell a light that will melt in your hand :laughing:

Then why is it that the 1xCR123 lights are brighter than the 1xAA?

MorePower · Jan 26, 2010

Ilikeshinythings said:
I wonder if it would be possible to use a collimating lens with a high-powered LED in a single AA form torch. I bet you could squeeze some extra lumens out of it and increase throw if you had the right size LED die and the right size collimating lens. I don't know the formulas though. Maybe somebody else could chime in.

Edit: it would almost certainly have to be run on li-ion cell...like energizer E92

The Energizer E92 is not a lithium ion cell. It's a lithium-iron disulfide cell. Also, the E92 is an AAA cell, not an AA cell.

OneBigDay · Jan 26, 2010

Warp said:
Then why is it that the 1xCR123 lights are brighter than the 1xAA?

Can you give an example of a light were this is true?

I was just looking at a light like the Jetbeam RRT-0. It will take either a "regular" AA, or it will take Lithium rechargeable 14500, or RCR123. You would have exactly the same output with either a 14500 or 123 (they are both 3.7v output). They may have slightly different capacities, but the output is exactly the same. The only difference is which format you prefer (i.e. do you prefer long and skinny or short and fat). Output of the battery is the same, output of the light is the same.

From an output voltage standpoint there is no difference between a 123 and a 14500.

If I take your statement literally, I would say you are exactly right that a non-lithium, say an Eneloop AA (1.2v) would most of the time be less bright than a CR123 (3.0v). This is true.

Warp · Jan 26, 2010

OneBigDay said:
From an output voltage standpoint there is no difference between a 123 and a 14500.

This is the part I tend to forget.

But even then there is a definite capacity advantage to the single, standard CR123, though the RCR123 and 14500 seem pretty well equal. It also seems that many/most AA lights are not intended to be used with a 14500, in which case you won't be getting the same output potential as you would with a single CR123 light.

If I have my facts straight, anyway.

Brasso · Jan 26, 2010

Lights that are the same output on AA, 14500, or 123 are that way because they are made to be that way. They have buck / boost circuits to keep the output the same regardless of input.

14500's actually have more capacity than RCR123's. Usually, anyway. The current is the same.

As mentioned above, it's mostly a heat sinking issue. The XPG can be driven over 300 lumens, but I don't know of any AA sized lights that could handle that much heat. You could make the lights bigger, but then what's the point of it being AA?

Warp · Jan 26, 2010

Brasso said:
14500's actually have more capacity than RCR123's. Usually, anyway. The current is the same.

And CR123s have more than either. Thus the advantage, in this regard, to the CR123.

Chroma · Jan 26, 2010

OneBigDay said:
Can you give an example of a light were this is true?
QUOTE]

What about the Quark Mini?

The 123 version is twice as bright in lumens as the AA version.

Warp · Jan 26, 2010

Chroma said:
OneBigDay said:

Can you give an example of a light were this is true?

Click to expand...

What about the Quark Mini?

The 123 version is twice as bright in lumens as the AA version.

That is a good example.

The 14500 competes well with the RCR123, but nothing near it's size range seems capable of competing, performance wise, with the CR123.

paulr · Jan 26, 2010

If you count 3.7 volt cells it's probably possible to bulid some monster multi-Cree light and 1000+ lumens with an IMR-style cell. Really, 1AA lights should be about interoperability with ubiquitous, commodity AA cells and a compact package.

Warp · Jan 26, 2010

paulr said:
Really, 1AA lights should be about interoperability with ubiquitous, commodity AA cells and a compact package.

Yes.

AA is everywhere. Aboslutely...everywhere. You give a little in performance but gain the option of far more readily available and less expensive batteries. I simply keep a backup to my EDC light on my keychain plus a Polystinger LED C4 in my truck...but another EDC light that is a simple 1xAA and can fit in my watch pocket sure is tempting.

Maximum Lumen Possibilities in a Single AA Light?

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