With Hindsight , what batteries would you buy

With hindsight , what batteries would you buy NOW ! or recommend to others in CR123A or 18650 ? Heck why not all of them !

I'd go with 14500s and 18650s, skipping CR123As/16340s completely.

Ordered 18650, so that would be my choice i guess

eneloops or primary lithium for AA
Sanyo 18650 for current draw below ~2A
IMR18650 for current draw above ~2A

I may be in the minority, but I am happy using Ultrafire Blue 16340 cells in my smaller lights, when max brightness is not needed. IMR16340 when I do need the extra current. I have an XPG running at 1.4A in a solarforce L2M, it runs great with an IMR16340, and when I don't need max Lumens I pop in the lower current Ultrafire.

AA: Eneloop/Duraloop or ROV Hybrids for rechargeables, Energizer Lithium for primaries
AAA: Eneloop/Duraloop for rechargeables, Energizer Lithium for primaries

C & D: I only have ROV Hybrids for rechargeables, so I have nothing else to compare against, so I can't really make an unbiased recommendation on those.

If I had to do it over again, with the possible exception of IMR cells for incan drop-ins, I would skip CR123A/16340 altogether.

18650: AW's Black button top or IMR18650.
If the quality was guaranteed to be consistent from batch to batch, I would have no problem recommending the Trustfire Black protected cells.

When I buy cells for a light that I know that I'm going to keep and use regularly, I buy AW's. If I'm just trying out some configuration, I often go with other brands, to reduce the investment cost.

In my experience, AW's cells are of a consistent higher quality than most of the others. If you buy 8 cells, they will all be the same. That's not saying you can't get a good cells with the other brands once in a while, but it seems to be pretty much hit and miss.

For 18650, I'm looking into finding Panasonic, Sanyo, A123 etc. These are much more difficult to locate, and/or more expensive, but I'm figuring probably worth the extra time and investment, for my permanent applications.

old 4570, I'm assuming (uh, oh! ) that is, what you meant.

Dave

Yeah .. Should have given an example ...

I would go Ultrafire Candy Apple red Protected 2600 [ 18650 ] x 6
And 6 of the new green 2600 18650 unprotected .

For CR123A it would be the Red and Black Trustfires ...

In AA the best batteries I can find are the Duracell Black and Green 2650mA .

If you take a look at our addiction i guess it really doesnt matter because were going to have all sorts of batts at hand. For AA i like to use AW 14500's because of the quality one expects and also Duraloops, in 18650's i like the blue Trustfires 2500's and also the red sanyos i got from an old laptop. For 16340's i also would recommend using AW's and Solarforce cells.

More Eagletac 18650's when 4sevens was liquidating them.

More AW IMR's - Similar to Kramer's mentality, higher current draw could be an IMR.

*Unless run-time is pivotal, than the 18650-p is selected.

I had some grey trustfire 16340's, one day after charging I used a DMM to check the termination voltage, and I watched it on and off over the next few minutes as it self discharged all the way down to 0.

Th232 said:

I'd go with 14500s and 18650s, skipping CR123As/16340s completely.

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Me too. For bigger lights I much prefer 1x18650 over 2 x 123 and for small lights I like L91/14500 better than CR/RCR123.

If I were to buy now, based on my experience, I would buy only Eneloop AAs and AW 18650s.

...I do like to have CR123s for long-term storage though, and I prefer Ray-O-Vacs.

So if draw in your lite is below 2A IMR is a bad choice? I am looking at using 2x18650 18650IMRs for the safety reliability factor but they will be in a lite with 1 XPG drawing about 1A. I think I have seen that with these ImRs if current draw is too low they actually perform pretty poor?

No, if money is not an object, go for them.

Liteskr42 said:

So if draw in your lite is below 2A IMR is a bad choice? I am looking at using 2x18650 18650IMRs for the safety reliability factor but they will be in a lite with 1 XPG drawing about 1A. I think I have seen that with these ImRs if current draw is too low they actually perform pretty poor?

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If I may paraphrase the above...... If your current draw is below 1C the LiCO cell will generally deliver a longer runtime that the IMR cell. If current is above 1C then the IMR cell will hold better voltage and ultimately give longer runtimes and better cell longevity.

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I've dumped a bundle of dough on cells since I found this site about 6 months ago!!!

In my experience this is how I am looking at this moving forward:
- Calculate the cell you need based on your planned current draw and the runtime you wish to receive.
- Don't set a hard limit (say 2A) for your decision. Go with the 1C rule. IF your current draw is going to be over 1C of the LiCO rated capacity then you should go for LiMN (IMR) cells.
- If your current draw is going to be under 1C of the rated LiCO cell capacity then go for the LiCO cells.
- If you are concerned about the safety factor definitely go with the IMR safer LiMN chemistry all the time.
- Always buy the AW cells if they are available for protected and IMR. Almost all other brands are complete pure trash with cell impedences so high that at a 1C discharge the voltage drop is huge.

Most of my scenarios are well above 1C (sometimes even 4-5C) so I generally go with the IMR cells. There are a few cases where I want runtime over power and I have spec'd my settup for the LiCO cells.

Here's a few examples of cell selection I've done lately:
1) 3x26500 FM body with FM1909 LA in D36 reflector. Lamp rating: 11.4 volts @ 5.6 Amp. I need a cell that can #1 - push 5.6 Amps without , #2 can hold 3.8 volts at load for a while and #3 last for at least 15-20 minutes. SOLUTION: IMR 26500 2.3Ah cell can deliver up to 20A and will hold better voltage at close to 2.5C load.

2) Surefire M3 with 18500 size bored out body and LF HO-M3 (1.55A) LA. Choices IMR 18500 @ 1.1Ah or AW 18500 LiCO @ 1.5Ah. Decision was for AW 18500 LiCO protected cell with 1.5Ah capacity. Load is just over 1C on these cells so runtime will be just under I hour.

3) Surefire A2 on rechargeable batteries. Need RCR123 cells for a lamp with LED wired directly in series with the batteries through resistiors to control the current level and a regulated incan lamp that can handle a higher input voltage. Choices IMR16340, AW RCR123, AW LiFePO4 16340. Solution is that both RCR123 and IMR16340 have a 3.7v nominal votage and will overdrive the LED and posibly burn out over time. RCR123 is not rated for the ~1.5A pull of the A2. LiFePO4 cells have voltage of 3.2 volts. Only a slight overdrive of the LED, safe chemistry, rechargable and high current capabilites.

Thanx for the input Shine. It helps to see how you approach these setups and your logic seems very solid.
I have always just automatically gone with protected Li-IOns but have found myself wanting the absolute most reliable setup and to me the PCBs in LIIon batts are just one more link in a chain that could be the failure point. If you drop one on the Neg end you could damage the PCB and poof no light. Unlikely but possible.
But I am torn between going unprotected LiIon which could pose more dangers or the IMR . But if the IMR trade off is too large it isnt worth it either. I guess I am wondering with IMR if they are utilized in a lite running a single XPG led and pulling somewhere around 1-1.2Ma will I get reduced output and significantly shorter runtimes compared to an AW Li-Ion prot/unprot. ?

Liteskr42 said:

Thanx for the input Shine. It helps to see how you approach these setups and your logic seems very solid.
I have always just automatically gone with protected Li-IOns but have found myself wanting the absolute most reliable setup and to me the PCBs in LIIon batts are just one more link in a chain that could be the failure point. If you drop one on the Neg end you could damage the PCB and poof no light. Unlikely but possible.
But I am torn between going unprotected LiIon which could pose more dangers or the IMR . But if the IMR trade off is too large it isnt worth it either. I guess I am wondering with IMR if they are utilized in a lite running a single XPG led and pulling somewhere around 1-1.2Ma will I get reduced output and significantly shorter runtimes compared to an AW Li-Ion prot/unprot. ?

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What is the application and what size cell would you be running? When you say 1-1.2 do you mean mA? As in 0.001 - 0.0012 Amps? Or do you mean pulling 1-1.2 Amps? Please clarify.

I'm new to this so you can take my comments with a grain of salt, but here is how my thinking has changed on batteries.

My first light was a primary only 123 light (surefire), from what I had gathered at the time CR123's were what all of the "good small" flashlights were using. After having this light for less than a year I realize I always reach for a rechargeable when possible - the guilt free lumen thing. If you get into rechargeable 123's (16340) then you have this short run time (in general).

So where I'm at now, with a lot of help from this forum and a little experience is this... lovecpf

• AA and AAA Eneloops or Imedions (LSD) for small lights. LSD trumps capacity for my AA/AAA uses.
• AW protected 18650's are the sweet spot and preferred format if there isn't some other special requirement.
• IMR 26650's from Batteryspace are nice in FiveMega hosts if you need either more amps, or more runtime. The 1x26650 footprint is no harder to carry than a 1x18650, and I can always use an 18650 with a sleeve in the same host. I see that 26500's are a lot more popular, but the 26650's have better capacity than AW IMR 26500's (for having similar size). I'm sure there is some other reason for the 26500 popularity that I haven't grasped yet because I am new to this.

Will make an attempt to avoid 123/16340's in the future unless there is something extra special about the light. Right now I am looking for a small lithium friendly light and will go with 1x14500 over 1x16340.

OneBigDay - all good comments and I agree to many of the point but would like to argue a few of these points.

-AA/14500 lights. Single AA lights just don't really get that bright in general unless you can use them with 14500 cells at 3.7v. That limits the scope of viable lights a lot. Also AA lights which do get bright usually use a boost circuit which requires a very high source current (>1A) from the battery. When the light gets hot it is because of the battery warming up and not the LED itself (example: NiteCore NDI - running to empty on 14500 battery only gets slightly warm but the battery gets HOT when running an Eneloop NiM). Don't get me wrong I love the single AA category - just only when using a 14500.
-Problem with 2xcr123 vs 18650 lights is that they usually run regulated on 2xcr123 or 2xrcr123 and unregulated on 18650. There is only a very small subset of lights which are regulated 18650 lights. LG Mini is a great example but ugly cheap LED color and ugly beam - although a great light in all other respects.
-26650 is nice format just not really supported outside of the custom light space.

I started off not being a supporter of the 123/16340 size of battery and was more 18650 and AA. Lately I have been a big supporter of the 2xCR123 lights. Usually they support IMR16340 cells and almost all will support the AW LiFePO4 cells at 3.2v.

There's no right answer here, just personal preferences.

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:

OneBigDay - all good comments and I agree to many of the point but would like to argue a few of these points.

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I'm always up for another POV. Apologies to OP if this is going off topic?

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:

-AA/14500 lights. Single AA lights just don't really get that bright in general unless you can use them with 14500 cells at 3.7v. That limits the scope of viable lights a lot. Also AA lights which do get bright usually use a boost circuit which requires a very high source current (>1A) from the battery. When the light gets hot it is because of the battery warming up and not the LED itself (example: NiteCore NDI - running to empty on 14500 battery only gets slightly warm but the battery gets HOT when running an Eneloop NiM). Don't get me wrong I love the single AA category - just only when using a 14500.

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This is an interesting point, especially the battery getting hot instead of the LED because of high current. I don't know much about the buck/boost circuitry and just assumed the heat was from the LED. I'll have to pay closer attention to this. That being said I find that for indoor type applications a small 1xAA NiMh or even 1xAAA NiMh is more than sufficient for me.

For outdoor applications that's another story. Is there a 14500 light that doesn't burn itself up on "Turbo". Most 14500 pocket rockets seem marketed with really high numbers, with the small print saying - oh, but you can only run it on "turbo" for 15 seconds or you catch fire! This is off topic so I'll try to keep it short -> There is a delicate balance between offering CPFers something that screams and knowing they will use the SuperNova mode with discretion, and offering an unsafe product that some less than in the know person will damage or worse yet hurt themselves. This would make an interesting topic in and of itself. 90% of me thinks a high mode that cannot be physically sustained by the flashlight is not right. 10% of me says, hey, let's live a little - show me the money and I'm willing to use in a limited way if you offer me this feature. I feel better standing in the consumers shoes than the manufacturers shoes on this one

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:

-Problem with 2xcr123 vs 18650 lights is that they usually run regulated on 2xcr123 or 2xrcr123 and unregulated on 18650. There is only a very small subset of lights which are regulated 18650 lights. LG Mini is a great example but ugly cheap LED color and ugly beam - although a great light in all other respects.

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Agree on the regulation point. In general it does seem most things that run both 18650 and 2x123s are regulated for the 2x123s. For me I have no issue with direct drive. As long as I know what I've got, I've got uses for both regulated and DD lights.

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:

-26650 is nice format just not really supported outside of the custom light space.

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I understand, and expect it will stay that way. But everybody is looking for high power and long runtime in a reasonably small package, I would think this format could gain steam. But as has been pointed out in other threads, the laptop battery, not flashlights, is what drives the majority of the 18650 market, and this factors heavily into why the 18650 is so popular. So we may never see a blossoming 26650 market, but I think it could have a much larger market than it does. It is interesting to note, but I don't get too hung up on it. If 3 years from now I can't get a 26650 battery anymore, I can still use a 18650 in the same host - so I feel at least the $$ I have invested in these hosts will remain usable whether 26650 becomes more common or not.

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:

I started off not being a supporter of the 123/16340 size of battery and was more 18650 and AA. Lately I have been a big supporter of the 2xCR123 lights. Usually they support IMR16340 cells and almost all will support the AW LiFePO4 cells at 3.2v.

There's no right answer here, just personal preferences.

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I think I do understand the pros and cons of 123/16340, but I am still where you started out - the more I look at them comared to other readily available options, the less appeal I see. Opinions do change with time, so we'll see. Good thing there is no shortage of flashlights for all tastes!