Toyota Recalls - Observations?

Hi, I was surprised that given the high profile, I didn't see a thread on this topic. I am not wanting to bash anybody, just get some info / reality check here.

About 15 or so years ago, BMW introduced an electronic gas pedal into their 7 series, which included some very significant redundant features to reduce the risk of electronic and other faults causing "runaway" situations. I assume that some car makers did not include these features?

There are some aspects of the gas pedal "fix" that just don't make sense to me, such as it being caused by "excess wear", but still seems shows up in some cars quite early. Why?

My 2000 Golf has a sensor for throttle rather than a cable, and I haven't as yet heard of issues about this from VW.

As I understand it, there is no electronic failure, it's actually a mechanical problem with the linkage between the pedal and the sensor. The fix is actually adding another part to the mix. Sounds like an engineering flaw to me.

Now the feds are getting in on it too. That's never good.

We had a lengthy thread regarding the initial fatal crash, in which the majority of us came to the conclusion that the driver either had no idea what he was doing, or there was more to the story that we just weren't aware of.

Since then, Car & Driver has done some real world testing of their own using a new Toyota Camry, in which the car was subjected to full-throttle braking distance tests, from a wide range of speeds. In each instance, the car was brought up to the initial starting speed, then both the throttle and brake were depressed fully - and in every instance the car only required a few more feet than normal to come to a complete stop. Regardless of the starting speed or engine RPMs, the brakes always engaged with authority and were not at all challenged by the engine. Only in the final test, specifically designed to overwhelm the brakes by attempting to panic stop at full throttle from 120 mph, did the brakes finally succumb to overheating and couldn't slow the car anymore - at 10 mph.

As for the recall issue, I think it only serves to show just how committed Toyota is to their customers; you might recall all the deaths and injuries from various American cars in the 70's and 80's due to widely known and reported causes, and how many manufacturers would simply forego issuing a recall as settlements with families were cheaper.. It says a lot about a car manufacturer that after only one incident, the CEO of the company immediately stops sales before the cause is even known, then apologizes publicly with a promise to fix everything. The quality of both the cars and the companies has come a long way..

StarHalo said:

As for the recall issue, I think it only serves to show just how committed Toyota is to their customers...It says a lot about a car manufacturer that after only one incident, the CEO of the company immediately stops sales before the cause is even known, then apologizes publicly with a promise to fix everything.

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Hogwash. With all the press coverage they HAD to do something to stop the stories. It's simple CYA in action.

Over on ToyotaNation forums they have been discussing it quite a bit. My Camry is supposed to be involved in the recall though I have received no letter yet and statistically I'm not too worried about it yet. There are pictures and videos of the pedal assemblies taken apart and compared. Also pictures of the fix being installed. It's not to convincing to me when you see it. Also I remember reading some reports of the car accelerating and the pedal being able to move up and down and the car still accelerating. Toyota is supposed to reflash the firmware on the vehicles which adds a safety. With the new firmware when you apply the brake and the gas (or the car senses the brake and gas) at the same time under certain conditions the engine is cut back to an idle.

For me, it's one of those things that the more you read the worse you feel, so I stopped reading about it

StarHalo said:

Since then, Car & Driver has done some real world testing of their own using a new Toyota Camry, in which the car was subjected to full-throttle braking distance tests, from a wide range of speeds. In each instance, the car was brought up to the initial starting speed, then both the throttle and brake were depressed fully - and in every instance the car only required a few more feet than normal to come to a complete stop. Regardless of the starting speed or engine RPMs, the brakes always engaged with authority and were not at all challenged by the engine. Only in the final test, specifically designed to overwhelm the brakes by attempting to panic stop at full throttle from 120 mph, did the brakes finally succumb to overheating and couldn't slow the car anymore - at 10 mph.

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I didn't know Car & Driver did a recent test. In the other thread, I had mentioned that they did a similar test back in the 1980s which basically had the same results. I was told that these results wouldn't necessarily be applicable as today's cars have more power than in the 1980s. Turns out I was right after all. It seems so long as you're traveling at any legal ( or even illegal but reasonable ) speed the brakes will be sufficient to overpower the engine. Interesting that they almost were able to stop even from 120 mph. At least a 10 mph collision is about 2 orders of magnitude less damaging than one at 120 mph.

oronocova said:

With the new firmware when you apply the brake and the gas (or the car senses the brake and gas) at the same time under certain conditions the engine is cut back to an idle.

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What about the rest of us that drive a manual and use heel-toe?

What I don't understand is why that woman didn't put her car into neutral if the brakes weren't working, or even turn off the engine.

(Yes, you'll lose power steering and brake assist, but it's not that uncontrollable)

Popsiclestix said:

What about the rest of us that drive a manual and use heel-toe?

What I don't understand is why that woman didn't put her car into neutral if the brakes weren't working, or even turn off the engine.

(Yes, you'll lose power steering and brake assist, but it's not that uncontrollable)

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This is just like the "Unintended Acceleration" "Problem" Audi had back in the 80's. I remember 60 minutes doing a big story on it. Oh the horror, the car was like it was possessed, I was pushing on the brake as hard as I could but it just kept going right through the back of the garage, etc. After some research it came out that it was just people pushing the accelerator instead of the brake when they were putting it in gear. That is why most or all automatics now have the shifter interlock that prevents it from being put in gear unless the brake is depressed. Someone stated back then, and it is true now, "In a fight between the engine and the brakes, the brakes ALWAYS win." This stuff about a car accelerating like mad while the driver is pushing hard on the brakes is just hogwash. Not gonna happen.

I know this won't be particularly PC, but I wonder what the average age is of people involved with "unintended acceleration"? After all aren't Toyotas the new Buicks?

Geoff

Popsiclestix said:

What about the rest of us that drive a manual and use heel-toe?

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You probably don't drive a recent Toyota.

What I don't understand is why that woman didn't put her car into neutral if the brakes weren't working, or even turn off the engine.

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Because the only requirement to get a drivers license in the US is a pulse.

Every time this topic has come up in conversation recently, someone has a similar story of someone they know getting into some sort of tense situation while driving and not being able to avoid (or causing) an accident because they don't understand their vehicle or know how to operate it.

Popsiclestix said:

What about the rest of us that drive a manual and use heel-toe?

What I don't understand is why that woman didn't put her car into neutral if the brakes weren't working, or even turn off the engine.

(Yes, you'll lose power steering and brake assist, but it's not that uncontrollable)

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Emphasis added.

That was my first thought, and, Gswitter you are dead on about the driving tests. I took my permit test, and missed 0 questions, after not even opening the manual... It should all be common sense stuff that you pick up over time...

I was listening to a radio talk show of which I don't remember which one, they mentioned a caller had stated he did put his Toyota into neutral when it was sudden racing the engine and the brakes didn't do much and it caused the engine to redline resulting in burnout. His complaint was that he tried to get warrenty service by the Dealer and they told him he shouldn't have burnt out the engine like that...I don't know how much of his story was true but I don't think Toyota owners are feeling alot of love right about now.

Sector7 said:

I was listening to a radio talk show of which I don't remember which one, they mentioned a caller had stated he did put his Toyota into neutral when it was sudden racing the engine and the brakes didn't do much and it caused the engine to redline resulting in burnout. His complaint was that he tried to get warrenty service by the Dealer and they told him he shouldn't have burnt out the engine like that...I don't know how much of his story was true but I don't think Toyota owners are feeling alot of love right about now.

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When your engine rpms reach redline, the rev limiter in the computer briefly shuts off fuel to the motor. This causes the rpms to drop below below redline, at which point fuel delivery is restored. This results in a rapid jerk-jerk-jerk-jerk sensation, but keeps the motor from revving above redline & potentially getting damaged.

As long as the driver shifts into neutral, slows down, pulls the car off the road, and shuts the motor off promptly, no engine damage should result.

^ Some vehicle's rev limiters kick in at a lower RPM while in Neutral. (Which really makes sense to me.) I'm not sure if this is the case with our Camry or not, but is with my pickup which limits to about 2500 in N and around 5700 in gear. Such programming would make it much safer on the engine if you had to perform this emergency maneuver, then again I would be less worried about the engine until after I got stopped. I agree though that the quicker you stop after shifting to N the less chances there are in damaging the engine.

vtunderground said:

When your engine rpms reach redline, the rev limiter in the computer briefly shuts off fuel to the motor. This causes the rpms to drop below below redline, at which point fuel delivery is restored. This results in a rapid jerk-jerk-jerk-jerk sensation, but keeps the motor from revving above redline & potentially getting damaged.

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You are right about that in normal circumstances....cars nowadays are fly by wire and I suspect alot of Toyota's problems have to due with firmware so perhaps the bug is interaction with the braking sequence and rev limiter not triggering in the software. Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak suggested in media interviews that Toyota's troubles with a defective accelerator pedal may have to do with software, after his Prius sped up while in cruise-control.

Radiophile said:

My 2000 Golf has a sensor for throttle rather than a cable, and I haven't as yet heard of issues about this from VW.

Now the feds are getting in on it too. That's never good.

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VW and Audi's (and, presumably Porsche, though I don't actually know for sure) have a triple-redundant system in their drive-by-wire throttle position sensors: there are three pots in the throttle assembly. If one sensor shows a different value than the others then that one signal is ignored. Maybe the ECU remembers this and throws a code if a second sensor shows a different value from the last sensor? I know that VW and Audi gas pedals, which incorporate the three throttle position sensors, is relatively cheap to replace, somewhere in the $80 range.

The Feds should have been involved years ago if this has been happening since 2001 or 2002 like have been reported. I read a news article on MSN, I think, about Toyota playing it off saying that it was driver error or something like that. They then blamed the floor mats, which seemed rediculous to me as a mat would usually prevent you from applying full throttle or just sit on top of the gas pedal, not press it enough to increase the revs, let alone go full throttle. Maybe they thought the mats were getting between the gas pedal and the floor in a way that it was preventing the brake pedal from being depressed and at the same time pressing on the gas pedal? I seriously doubt it. The Feds finally said, "Enough!" and are mounting a full-scale investigation due to people getting killed due to this problem. Apparently, Toyota has known about this problem for years but never approached the NHTSA about it like they were supposed to back in 2003 or 2004 and that is what is getting them into hot water now.

Radiophile said:

Hogwash. With all the press coverage they HAD to do something to stop the stories. It's simple CYA in action.

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No, it's the NHTSA stepping in and making them do something other than to point the finger at the owners.

Popsiclestix said:

What about the rest of us that drive a manual and use heel-toe?

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My VW GLI has DBW and I can heel-and-toe despite the system defaulting to idle if the throttle is depressed first then brake pedal is pressed even if the throttle is to the floor. The logic of the VW system allows me to press on the gas pedal and increase the revs if I'm on the brake first then step on the gas, though. It also acts as a safety system, allowing the driver to brake and the engine dropping to idle in case there is a triple failure of the throttle position sensors or if something were to jam the gas pedal to the floor while driving.

Flying Turtle said:

I know this won't be particularly PC, but I wonder what the average age is of people involved with "unintended acceleration"? After all aren't Toyotas the new Buicks?

Geoff

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One of the accidents involved an off-duty Highway Patrol officer and both him and his entire family perished. Are you saying that he was not fit to drive his family Toyota?

My truck has had the throttle stuck twice (mechanical linkage), and with only drum brakes on the rear axle, the engine easily overpowers the brakes. I just shut it off, you lose power sterring but vacuum pressure remains in the brake booster a while after the car is shut off. I really do not trust the drive by wire systems because when the sensor starts to wear out it becomes "noisy" and can input random throttle positions, plus throttle response is worse.

Simply, bring back manual trannies.

Many variables to this and unless it happens at a personal level it becomes speculative. With drive-by-wire there is more electronic interaction than operator action. Programming, sensors, parts wear or defects, any combination can be a disaster. We have floor mats in this mix too. Whatever the situation, out in the wild, there will be scenarios not planned for. Whether it is the manufacturer's doing or operator's.

I don't know anyone who has had a stuck gas pedal or non-functioning brake pedal. Any of you?

Radiophile, just google "Pinto fires" -- there was plenty of press coverage
of all the people trapped and incinerated in their Pintos, and with no action from Ford for years!

"In April, 1974, the Center for Auto Safety petitioned the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to recall Ford Pintos due to defects in the design of the strap on gas tank which made it susceptible to leakage and fire in low to moderate speed collisions. The Center's petition was based upon reports from attorneys of three deaths and 4 serious injuries in such accidents. This petition languished in the NHTSA offices until 1977..."

want the truth? you can google the truth:

http://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-fed-fires

PCC said:

One of the accidents involved an off-duty Highway Patrol officer and both him and his entire family perished. Are you saying that he was not fit to drive his family Toyota?

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No, I was mostly just making a not so funny joke relating to old people sometimes having problems driving, and the fact that Toyotas are likely bought by many instead of their stereotypical Buicks. Was I being too subtle?

Also, I can remember a bit about Audi's troubles thirty years ago. Wasn't it shown that in most cases it was driver error? Let's just say I don't think Toyota problems are nearly as widespread in reality. They must do the massive recalls or perish.

Geoff