Advice about wrapping on a 14500 please

Some of the most expensive rechargeables are the AW brand. But, I had an AW 14500 roll of a table and when it struck the floor the black covering broke off the bottom of the battery, though it still functions fine is it dangerous having this stuff exposed?

I have an AW 17670 that no longer works. It was inside my flashlight when I dropped it from waist high and the battery no longer works. Did the protection circuit break or something?

If I find myself charging a battery once a week or so and not really using it enough to run it anywhere near being low, would an unprotected cell be more durable/reliable?

Re: AWs cheap?

check here first and then see if that answers your question

Re: AWs cheap?

Xak said:

Some of the most expensive rechargeables are the AW brand. But, I had an AW 14500 roll of a table and when it struck the floor the black covering broke off the bottom of the battery, though it still functions fine is it dangerous having this stuff exposed?

I have an AW 17670 that no longer works. It was inside my flashlight when I dropped it from waist high and the battery no longer works. Did the protection circuit break or something?

If I find myself charging a battery once a week or so and not really using it enough to run it anywhere near being low, would an unprotected cell be more durable/reliable?

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For the 14500 battery, that would depend on a few factors such as what is exposed, is it a protected cell, and where the switch is on the light you use it in. You just want to be sure that the battery can't short circuit itself. (a.k.a. have the positive and negative connected without running through the light's circuitry.)

Not sure what is the case with the 17670. Seems unlucky, any visible damage? Usually batteries fare alright when they are dropped while inside a light... they tend to be more vulnerable when they are just loose cells.

Re: AWs cheap?

Xak said:

Some of the most expensive rechargeables are the AW brand. But, I had an AW 14500 roll of a table and when it struck the floor the black covering broke off the bottom of the battery, though it still functions fine is it dangerous having this stuff exposed?

I have an AW 17670 that no longer works. It was inside my flashlight when I dropped it from waist high and the battery no longer works. Did the protection circuit break or something?

If I find myself charging a battery once a week or so and not really using it enough to run it anywhere near being low, would an unprotected cell be more durable/reliable?

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I don't think this is a question of the AW cells being cheap. Rather it is a question of you being careless, and expecting a circuit board on the bottom of a protected battery to not be damaged after you let it fall and strike the ground. That's not realistic, and should not show up in a thread like it is AW's responsibility to make an indestructable battery protection circuitboard, or else his products are "cheap."

There is harm, and an unfair impression your thread title and post does does to a very highly regarded reseller's reputation. If you had asked questions about the safety of cells you abused, I think you would find all of us trying to help you out. I now find it more important to defend AW's reputation and quality.

Re: AWs cheap?

LuxLuthor said:

I don't think this is a question of the AW cells being cheap. Rather it is a question of you being careless,...

There is harm, and an unfair impression your thread title and post does does to a very highly regarded reseller's reputation.

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+1 :thumbsup:

Thanks Luthor...

I never had problems with AW cells. These are the best you can get! :twothumbs

Re: AWs cheap?

LuxLuthor said:

There is harm, and an unfair impression your thread title and post does does to a very highly regarded reseller's reputation. If you had asked questions about the safety of cells you abused, I think you would find all of us trying to help you out. I now find it more important to defend AW's reputation and quality.

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Indeed.

Xak, at least change the title to something like "Advice about wrapping on a 14500". Your questions are valid, is this 14500 safe, and how do I reset or troubleshoot the 17670, but to have "AW cheap?" on full display in the title is not fair.

Re: AWs cheap?

if you are a sophisticated li-ion user and using single-18650 light, opt for NCR18650A, half the price, 20% more capacity, even better cell characteristic.

Re: AWs cheap?

OK, so this could be a normal result of a battery rolling off a table. That's all I wanted to know. I didn't mean to suggest AW was a bad product, I just meant to ASK if AW were a bad product. If everyone here stands by them I will consider replacing them with another AW battery.

Thanx, sorry about my cave man like communication skills.

Would an un-protected cell be more durable? I really can't risk dropping my light at work and having the battery go "poof" again.

Re: AWs cheap?

Unprotected cells do not have the protection circuit at the base of the cell, so if you drop an unprotected cell you won't have to worry about damaging the circuit.

Now the internals of the cell (protected or unprotected) might get shifted around depending on the height the battery fell from (I know that can happen with NiMh cells).

With unprotected cells you need to know how your cells perform and know when to charge them, as their is no safeguard in place to shut off the battery when it's voltage gets too low.

As for the cell wrapper cracking due to a drop...they are just as likely to crack on Panasonic, LG, Samsung, or any other brand cells.

Re: AWs cheap?

Awesome, thanx.

Do unprotected cells have more capacity because they don't need room for the protection circuit or does it not matter?

Can I remove the protection circuit from my 17670 and use it as unprotected, or is that a dangerous procedure?

Re: AWs cheap?

Many modern lights have an aluminum barrel and tightly clamp the cell(s) inside it for good electrical contact. This means if you drop the light on a hard floor the mechanical shock is directly transmitted through the light to the battery.

Manufacturers could make shock tolerant lights with some rubber buffering inside, but I'm not sure if any do.

The short answer is "batteries are fragile" and therefore try not to drop your lights no matter what batteries are inside.

Re: AWs cheap?

Xak said:

Would an un-protected cell be more durable? I really can't risk dropping my light at work and having the battery go "poof" again.

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would you rather the whole light go "poof"?

if you require more reliability, don't use li-ion.

Re: AWs cheap?

Xak said:

Do unprotected cells have more capacity because they don't need room for the protection circuit or does it not matter?

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This depends on the protected cell, 18650 cells are usual a regular 18650 cell with a protection circuit added to it, i.e. it is too long (Here is photos of the construction).
16340 (RCR123) cells might use a shorter cell

Xak said:

Can I remove the protection circuit from my 17670 and use it as unprotected, or is that a dangerous procedure?

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You might need to put some new shrink wrap around the cell.

Re: AWs cheap?

toby_pra said:

+1 :thumbsup:

Thanks Luthor...

I never had problems with AW cells. These are the best you can get! :twothumbs

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Agreed 100%

Re: AWs cheap?

Xak said:

OK, so this could be a normal result of a battery rolling off a table. That's all I wanted to know. I didn't mean to suggest AW was a bad product, I just meant to ASK if AW were a bad product. If everyone here stands by them I will consider replacing them with another AW battery.

Thanx, sorry about my cave man like communication skills.

Would an un-protected cell be more durable? I really can't risk dropping my light at work and having the battery go "poof" again.

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Thanks for this response. FYI: You can go and edit your first post (in advanced mode) to change the topic title.

If you are using a rechargeable Lithium Ion battery (particularly the higher capacity Lithium Cobalt type cells--see my classification here), there is no substitute for having a protection circuit built into the battery to protect against overcharge & overdischarge. If you looked at the photos of the battery construction in my previous post (& HJK's post), you can see these round circuit boards are thin and fragile. AW (& some other brands) have encased them in a plastic protective cup, but if the battery falls on a hard surface, it is reasonable to assume the board and/or one of the chip components may have been damaged.

It would be wise to err on the side of being cautious and replace the cell if there is any evidence of damage or loss of protective function. There is also the thin metal strip running up the side to the top positive end. There is very little insulation between the strip and the negative battery can, and an impact can indent the + charge strip against the neg charged can, causing a dead short--which the protection circuit is also designed to give protection from.

So you need to evaluate if the torn label in the one instance may have damaged the insulation tape under the + metal strip. If not, then replacing the shrink wrap to prevent a short of the battery can against the inside of the light would be a wise step.

Finally, sometimes the battery appears to have a zero voltage because the protection circuit has done its job, but remains in an "open circuit" condition. An attempt to recharge it can reset the protection feature--immediatly restoring the voltage reading, but all this should be done with caution, outside, and with a digital voltmeter at hand so you know what is going on.

Thanks for changing the topic title too. We care that much about AW's services to us over the years. :thumbsup:

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Niconical said:

to have "AW cheap?" on full display in the title is not fair.

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I thought it meant AW cells were for sale cheap!![/FONT]

Xak said:

Some of the most expensive rechargeables are the AW brand. But, I had an AW 14500 roll of a table and when it struck the floor the black covering broke off the bottom of the battery, though it still functions fine is it dangerous having this stuff exposed?

I have an AW 17670 that no longer works. It was inside my flashlight when I dropped it from waist high and the battery no longer works. Did the protection circuit break or something?

?

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i worked with this guy once that dropped a lot of stuff, without saying anything we just didnt let him handle the rechargable cells one drop and a $100 sony camera battery could become another hour long repair job for me, or cost me $36 in replacement cells again (cells had to be matched).

none of the rechargables like to be dropped, because of the tight electrolyte roll inside. the high energy density , and the fact that a PARTIAL internal cell short can cause big problems. (like self-discharge).

Have you seen how SMALL the components are in these curcuits like the protection curcuits or drivers? i have dislodged chips off a circuit board with a slight pull of my hand, a few molecules of solder holding flea sized parts on the board. This stuff isnt Vaccume tubes, and 10mm transistors, and OLD SCHOOL overdone mondo parts, its the new technology age where 80% of laptops that Fail are because of a Drop. sure it all fits on a Dime, and does most amazing things, but many many gadgets now are not capable of survival, just operation, and if were talking "smart" phones , they barely accomplish that

no the battery should Not fall apart because it fell off the table, but we have had many rechargable batteries become unreliable batteries from a drop of human hands high on a hard surface.
so what i am saying is when your dropping stuff, what you DONT SEE is still going on too. please be more carefull in general with batteries in general, it will pay off in the long run with less frustrations.
EX: right before a recharge session i get myself and the gadgets over the table, because i am sure to drop at least one of the 50+ i will deal with that day.

you can get battery wrap for mere pennies (minus shipping) to re-shrink wrap a battery that the shrink wrap is ruined on. you can also buy replacment protection (for about $2), or if your really good you can get raw premium cells and the tiny protection modules and Make Your Own protected battery, better and cheaper, but the one thing you cant do easily is make it bulletproof and still have it FIT the same and have the same power.
take a crack at making one of these protected cell items, AND trying to keep it thin on there, and you will realise the needs of the battery better. take a look at a battery cracked open, how thin the case is, how the battery is assembled and the type of parts, and you will see that they are doing the best they can to STUFF power in, but it isnt Magic, there is no magic, and wood blocks dont put out crud for power

http://www.batteryspace.com/78-3widthpvctube.aspx
http://www.batteryspace.com/pcbfor37vli-ion1865018500cellbattery3a-1alimit.aspx
(and that is the BIG one)

umm duddddee if your dropping stuff like that, whats going to happen when we recommend unprotected cells to you not to be mean or anything but I (myself) use protection because it is Idiot proof. I always put a Case around my new high tech gadgets , like cell phones and PDAs , some sort of leather or silicoln protector. i dont drop stuff lots, but i also dont take chances. that tiny STUFF is to hard to re-solder.

Re: AWs cheap?

Mr Happy said:

Manufacturers could make shock tolerant lights with some rubber buffering inside, but I'm not sure if any do.

.

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the us guverment/military requires more specs for shock resistance safety, and stuff like that. from what i read some of the military issue (actual not consumer faux military) light things for guns have much more stringant requirements, assuming they are actually done.

a surefire designed for a gun mount thing, probably would survive a lot better, especially at 10TIMES the price

[FONT=&quot]The first time I came to this newly named post, "wrapping on a 14500." I thought it was going to be about AWs removable labels.

VidPro said:

you can get battery wrap for mere pennies.. to re-shrink wrap a battery that the shrink-wrap is ruined on.

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What is the story on these labels anyway?[/FONT]