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Thread: Lithium D size batteries?

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    Flashaholic* SmurfTacular's Avatar
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    Default Lithium D size batteries?

    I know that you can buy lithium batteries in AAA size (11440) and AA size (14500). Are there such things as a D size lithium battery? If they do exist, wouldnt it be great to put in your maglite? Do such batteries exist on the market? If not, then why?

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* cfromc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Primaries and rechargables are available, just harder to find. HDS Systems/Ra lights have lithium primaries and there are some on CPFM for sale. I don't know who is currently selling rechargables but I found some a couple years ago.

  3. #3
    Flashaholic* tx101's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    KD sell D size rechargeable li-ions, beware KD can be hit or miss
    A couple of CPFers did sell them, Download and Plasmaman

    You might be better off using C size rechargeable li-ion

    I was searching around for larger size rechargeable li-ion cells
    and found somewhere that manufactures them. They made all sorts
    of sizes but unfortunately the minimum order was 1000 pieces

  4. #4

    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Xtar also make D li-ion batteries. Their real capacity is around 4Ah.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    lithium primary D cells (throwaway) that output higher amperages are about $25 apiece , and they dont really do very high amperages AND capacity at the same time.
    why?
    i figure the "market" for them is still battery backup, computers. medical equiptment , military backup, smart bombs :-) and stuff like that. there is one i have seen that would be suited for a 250ma type drain on it, without loosing to much capacity. your average flashlight run on Med :-(

    there probably are others , that are even higher ouput capable , but completly out of any price range i would even concider them at.

    the li-ion D :-) now that thing is cool, because for $25-50 you can re-use it many times, but you would have to completly know what your doing to use it, or to even "be allowed" to purchace some of them.

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    Flashaholic* T45's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Sorry to see that after a YEAR no one has answered the Original Poster's questions: yes, D Cell Lithium batteries are readily available for purchase, a highly recommended dealer on CPF, Batteryjunction.com, has them for sale as a regular item.

    "If they do exist, wouldn't it be great to put in your maglite?"
    I have wondered about this very same thing. The lithium D cells I have seen are rated at 3.0 or 3.6 Volts per battery, so you would probably use them as a 1 for every 2 alkaline battery replacement, alkaline D batteries having a 1.5 volt capacity per battery. I would think 2 D cell lithiums would generate about the same power or watts as 4 alkalines. My custom maglite project I am pondering having built would use a 2D maglite with 2 lithium batteries and should generate the same or a bit more power or wattage as a 4D with alkalines. Prices range from $12 to $25 per D cell lithium. There is also a DD Lithium battery, one cylindrical cell with the same width as a D cell, just twice the length, available in places, rather costly at about $45 each, but an interesting power supply option also.

    I would really like to hear if anyone on CPF has any experience with D cell lithium batteries.
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    Flashaholic* T45's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Detail: yes, the D cell lithium batteries I am talking about are PRIMARY batteries. non-rechargeable.
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Primary Lithium Thionyl Chloride cells are good only for very low current draws. They are good for flashlights only if you are going to use low modes.

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    *Flashaholic* Lynx_Arc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    There are still no ~1.5v equivelent lithium primary D cells out there. If energizer doesn't sell them most likely you won't ever see them and if you take the size of a AA lithium primary and cost and equate it to the size/volume of a D cell then you could guess they would cost at least $10-$12 apiece if not closer to $15 each making it a bit too pricey to use vs just converting to rechargeables of some sort.
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    Flashaholic* jasonck08's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by T45 View Post
    Detail: yes, the D cell lithium batteries I am talking about are PRIMARY batteries. non-rechargeable.

    Quote Originally Posted by jirik_cz View Post
    Primary Lithium Thionyl Chloride cells are good only for very low current draws. They are good for flashlights only if you are going to use low modes.
    Exactly, these cells are designed for very low currents, like 0.01C and less. They also have a very long shelf life of 10+ years in most cases. They usually have a very specific industrial application. I wouldn't recommend them for use in a flashlight.

  11. #11
    Flashaholic* T45's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonck08 View Post
    Exactly, these cells are designed for very low currents, like 0.01C and less. They also have a very long shelf life of 10+ years in most cases. They usually have a very specific industrial application. I wouldn't recommend them for use in a flashlight.
    OK, I will admit quite freely that my knowledge of electronics in general, and batteries specifically, is quite limited, but if a Lithium Cell is such a poor choice for lights, why are so many CPF members using Lithium cells, particularly the 18650 and the RCR123 in so many flash lights? Am I missing something? Is it battery chemistry? Current capacity? A Lithium Ion 18650 rechargeable battery is used in a Number of flash lights and even recommended by some manufacturers for a few models. A popular mod for a Maglite is to cut it down to a 1D size and use 1 18650 Lithium Ion battery in an adapter to power some setups, and I have seen 2, 3, or more CR123s used to power a Maglite also. Those batteries are all above 1.5 volts, usually 3.0 to 4.0 volts. Is it just the Lithium Thionyl Chloride Primaries the issue? Has anyone TRIED a Lithium Primary in a flashlight?

    I just would like a better explanation than what I have seen provided so far, as the recommendations to NOT use a Lithium Primary has been more than a bit confusing
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    *Flashaholic* HKJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by T45 View Post
    but if a Lithium Cell is such a poor choice for lights, why are so many CPF members using Lithium cells, particularly the 18650 and the RCR123 in so many flash lights?
    A lithium cell is not just a lithium cell, there are many different types.
    The RCR123 and 18650 cells are LiIon (Lithium Ion) rechargeable cells and are used in 3 different chemistries, all are able to deliver enough power for a flashlight.

    Then there are the lithium primary CR123 cells (3 volt) and the lithium primary AA and AAA cells (1.7 volt), these also works well for lights.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    And there are Primary D cells http://www.hdssystems.com/?id=LithiumDSo2Battery as mentioned earlier, limited to 1A draw via PTC, but without it they are just the big brother for CR123s cells and can put out stupid amounts™ of current.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by CKOD View Post
    And there are Primary D cells http://www.hdssystems.com/?id=LithiumDSo2Battery as mentioned earlier, limited to 1A draw via PTC, but without it they are just the big brother for CR123s cells and can put out stupid amounts™ of current.
    I think it should help to point out that the OP is most likely not talking about this type of batteries, but instead the Energizer Lithium batteries running at ~1.5V

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    Flashaholic* T45's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by CKOD View Post
    And there are Primary D cells http://www.hdssystems.com/?id=LithiumDSo2Battery as mentioned earlier, limited to 1A draw via PTC, but without it they are just the big brother for CR123s cells and can put out stupid amounts™ of current.

    I don't understand the " limited to 1A draw via PTC, but without it they are just the big brother for CR123s cells and can put out stupid amounts™ of current."

    is that a good thing? a bad thing? what is a PTC? and more importantly, do they work in a flash light?
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by T45 View Post
    I don't understand the " limited to 1A draw via PTC, but without it they are just the big brother for CR123s cells and can put out stupid amounts™ of current."

    is that a good thing? a bad thing? what is a PTC? and more importantly, do they work in a flash light?
    Its a safety feature, but neither good nor bad. If you need < 1A of current, its fine. If you need more, its a problem. A PTC is a positive temperature coefficient thermistor. Its a current limiting device, its resistance increases as it gets warm, so if you draw too much current the PTC heats up, increases in resistance, making it heat even more, until it finally goes to a fairly high impedance, and cuts off the current. They are whats used for "self resetting fuses"

    Since they have a 2.8v working voltage, then you could probably put 2 in a 2D mag, put a 4D bulb in it, and use that, for something simple, and has a long shelf life. 7.5Ah with a 750mA discharge, so you can pull ~2 watts from one. So you could make a 3D mag that would run a XP-E HEW or XPG at 1A with a switch mode converter (sharkbuck or H6CC) that runs for ~14 hours. 14 hours, with ~250 source lumens with a 80-cri white, or 325 with cool white.

    You could probably do 2 in a 2D mag, and with a switching converter that would take 8.4v in for the max, and still runs well with 4.5v in or so, you could make a light like above that runs off of 2x 18650s or 25650s or 2 primary cells. Just have to flip the spring around backwards for the rechargeables and forwards for the primary cells.

    And like I said, if you can remove the PTC (dont know how hard that would be) or find a version without, that cell would probably give ~10A without batting an eye, and could probably dump ~50-60A or more when shorted.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by CKOD View Post
    And like I said, if you can remove the PTC (dont know how hard that would be) or find a version without, that cell would probably give ~10A without batting an eye, and could probably dump ~50-60A or more when shorted.
    And it could probably be used to great effect in a series application until someone winds up with mismatched cells (due to careless mixing of partially discharged cells or a manufacturing defect) and has an explosion that makes all those 123 cell explosions look like so many firecrackers.

    Not to say they don't or shouldn't exist and/or be used with the proper precautions, but thinking about PTC-less Li D cells in the hands of everyone who doesn't know any better makes me just a tiny bit scared.

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    Flashaholic* T45's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    .....hmmm. a Lot to consider, but the setup I envision would be very simple: A 2D Maglite with a drop in like Mac's Custom piece, 2 Lithium D cells, some fining of the head, and Bingo! A unique and useful custom piece.
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    Flashaholic* LEDAdd1ct's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    SmurfTacular, would you be willing to change the thread title to specify whether you mean primary (throw them in the garbage when empty) or secondary (recharge 'em and use some more) cells? It would make the thread more clear to folks searching the forums looking for more information on 32650 cells, or, to disambiguate from the same type of chemistry that the famous Energizer AA lithium primary cells use.



    LEDAdd1ct

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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    I, too, have been wondering why there aren't any D sized lithium-iron disulfide primary batteries like the Energizer AA and AAA cells. (I'm contemplating buying a TK70 and have noticed that alkalines aren't really capable of powering it at maximum output.) Is it a commercial case that Energizer doesn' t think there's enough people willing to spend $10 on a one-time-use cell, or is there some safety concern about having that much lithium metal in one place? Until the Energizer patents run out, no-one is going to compete with them in North America. Is there a D size lithium-iron disulfide available anywhere else in the world?

    Bill
    ( still waiting for his last purchase to show up in the mail...darn Canadian customs....)

  21. #21
    *Flashaholic* Lynx_Arc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    I think the issue is that for consumer purposes a D lithium primary would have the capability of a lot of power and people would be tempted to use them in devices that won't handle the extra voltage well and ruin them also most people that have a 2D flashlight won't pay $20 to replace the batteries I don't think there would be enough of a market to pay for the startup costs to mass manufacture them. I think that a C cell lithium primary would probably be more useful for the amount of power/size and cost to resell them but ratio of C to D cell devices is rather low.
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    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    What about 4 parallel AA to D adapter?


  23. #23

    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Heeeey...That looks like the bee's knees! Do you carry those??

  24. #24
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    Default Re: NON-rechareable Lithium primary batteries

    I use 2 C-cell lithium non-rechargeable cells in one of my flashlights. I have a PR 1-watt LED bulb that is designed for 4-6cells. It was a little too dim with 2 Alkaline c-cells. Since it is a rarely used kitchen closet flashlight, I tossed in a couple lithium c-cells. Yes, they are expensive. But, since the flashlight will sit in the closet for the next 1/2 decade or so, maybe being used a couple times a year for a few minutes here and there, the lithium expense seemed acceptable.

    There is also a DD size non-rechargeable lithium, which should be perfect for 2-cell flashlight. Yes, unlike 2 D primary lithiums in series(6-7.2v), its a 3.0/3.6v DD so its expensive option for someone who wants a long life battery with a low power LED.

    The limit to the battery life is how much current you pull from them. So, if you use this battery and want a reasonable life out of it, stick with the <3w LEDs and preferably closer to 1w. They will give you more current but total power available drops rapidly.

    AA & AAA Lithiums are available from Energizer at most stores and are the 1.5v perfect replacement for normal alkalines. The 9V is also available from Energizer/Ultralife/... I wish that Energizer would come out with C and D sized @ 1.5v as it would give some serious life(in use and not in use).

    Saft/Tadiran/Tenergy are available if you want the 3.6V primaries in that AA size. Saft/Varta also has an AA in 3.0v.

    Tenergy makes a 3.6v in the C-cell size. Panasonic makes a 3.0v in the C-cell size.

    Xeno/Saft/Tadiran make a D-cell sized at 3.6v, and Saft makes a D-cell in 3.0v.

    And, DD size is also available in 3.0v and 3.6v.

    There are also "A" sized, 1/2AA 1/3AA..... available too.

  25. #25
    *Flashaholic* Lynx_Arc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny3073 View Post
    Heeeey...That looks like the bee's knees! Do you carry those??
    I believe those are aventrade adapters. There was a group buy years ago selling them for around $5 each but I don't think the company sells them any more. I have been looking for 3AA parallel adapters made like the series ones but just wired in parallel but nobody sells them and companies that make series versions only sell them in batches of 100 or 1000.
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  26. #26
    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    I have made many different types and sizes (serial, parallel, Serial/Parallel) in past but due to lack of interest, I stop making them.

    3.7 volt using 3x17670 6 volt

    11.1 volt using 9x14500 3.6 volt using 9 Eneloops

    7.4 volt using 6x14500 2.4 volt using Eneloops

    7.4 volt using 4x18650 2.4 volt using 4 3/4AF
    Last edited by fivemega; 09-17-2011 at 01:40 AM.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    I am really missing it. Like the OP, I don't understand why you can't buy lithium ion batteries, either as disposables or rechargeables, in C or D size as readily as the smaller sizes. I am interested in a flashlight for leaving in the car to replace a 3C maglite. All the LED flashlights I see have tiny bodies for their small batteries. Why not have a bigger flashlight body that can accomodate a C or D size battery? It would seem with lithium ion technology you would get a big increase in available energy. That energy could be used to extend the life, increase the output, or a combination. Why aren't flashlight manufacturers building bigger flashlights and battery manufacturers supplying the batteries?

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Sam View Post
    I don't understand why you can't buy lithium ion batteries, either as disposables or rechargeables, in C or D size as readily as the smaller sizes.
    You can buy lithium ion C and D but you can NOT buy quality lithium ion C and D

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* LEDAdd1ct's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    Can we change the title to focus the discussion and reflect the fact that we seem to be discussing lithium primary cells? If you toss the word "lithium" into a dsicussion, you could be discussing:

    lithium cobalt
    lithium manganese dioxide
    lithium iron phosphate

    etc....

    Something like: "Why Can't you Buy Lithium Primary 1.7v 'D' Cells?"

    or,

    "Why Can't You Buy 'D' Lithium Primaries like the Energizer 'AA'?"
    Last edited by LEDAdd1ct; 12-06-2011 at 07:49 AM.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Lithium D size batteries?

    back from the dead ,also made a small search for non rechargarable branded litium batteries but found 0.
    that AA to D adaptor is good idea

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