My first time to produce a Drop-in * BIG NEWS inside

I designed some flashlights, and got cheers and jeers. Some people like the new UI, and some don't like it.

One day, Jeff (a fellow CPFer) told me that people like Drop-ins for 6P very much. I thought I can produce one too, because I have spent many time considering and designing lights based on XP-G LED.

I'd like to get a drop-in as good as the ones from great producers (no copy. emm). So,
1- I will use brass to build the whole body, to get a good heatsink.
2- I will use the best LED I can get.
3- I will use the best Optics I can get.
4- I will use the best drivers I can get.

I hope to get some advices before the project.

A- Who will take a single level version? And who will take a 2/3 level version?
B- Who want 18650 only version? Who want the 2*CR123/2*16340/1*18650 version? (and the light will be off at 3.6V)

Tell me your thoughts and get my thanks



BIG NEWS!

WE GOT A DRIVER FOR MAGLITE DROP-IN!

SINGLE LEVEL, up to 4.5A

Regulated from 3.3V to 18V

Efficiency : 93%

So, we will start with these two models:

[D26 / 6P]
the D26 6P drop-in will be an 1A one at first,
and later the 1.5A one.


[Mag-lite]
And the Mag-lite drop-in is so wonderful that it can run with 1*cr123/16340/18650 or 2*cr123/16340/18650 or 3*cr123/16340/18650 or 4*cr123/16340/18650 or 5*cr123.
and output up to 4.5A, at a 93% efficiency.

Crazy people can order 6.5A version from me, but I will not grantee anything

Could you give me your advices? Thanks!

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in



I think people would appreciate a 2/16340 battery option..... a 2 level or 5 level sounds nice!

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

I'd be in for a pocket rocket single level version with a voltage range of 3.6 to 9v to give me the flexibility of using different cells and bodies with it and the beam profile optimized for throw.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

2 or 3 levels sounds good to me, and I would prefer the option of being able to use 18650's,cr123's and16340's.

Good luck with your project.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

You are going to get more answers than you posted options.

Since Solarforce makes 18650 wide L2 hosts available at very low price. A single 18650 or with extensons a dual 18650/18500 or even 2 RCR123 (16340) option would be very nice. In other words drive voltage from 3.6 to 9V. Then we could go with just about all of the popular battery options.

Next as far as output levels. There are those of us who absolutely cannot tolerate having to shift through a bunch of levels to get back to high.

I find 5 levels to be ridiculous. I find strobe and SOS mode to be totally unworthy of spending any money on. If you put those features into a module I will never buy it.

I would say a good full power and then something at 20 to 30 % of that. Some will argue you should have a ridiculously low mode at 0 point something stupid so they can keep their night vision. (Why exactly is it we turn on an ultra powerful flashlight if we want to keep our night vision). I have not found anything less than 20 lumens useful.

For others the 3 mode is the best compromise, 20%, 50% and 100%.
This I could tolerate in a non tactical flashlight, especially if 100% is really slightly overdriven. I like the Anto 1.4 amp drive XPG and its brightness level. If you made something that was 20% of that, then 50% of that and then 100% was equal to 1.4 amp drive to the XPG LED. And if It was extremely reliable, no hiccups or glitches to the operator, then I believe you will have a lot of customers.

If you offered a single mode that would take up to 9V and down to 3.6V you would also have a lot of customers.


If you offered another module that would run off of 2.6 to 3.4V for all of these guys who must have this type of light in a 2AA host since they are out there now (I know Solarforce has one), you will also sell more lights.

The one for the 2AA crowd will probably want the 3 modes to save battery power from the limited source of 2AA's.

That's my take on it. If you offer too many options you will get people who want that X 2.

So you are on the right track, keep it simple, make them very reliable, with a clean beam and you won't be able to keep them in stock.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

1 (18650) with ability to use (2)CR123 or 16340's.

3 modes (no strobes) very low, 50%, 100%.

If you use a light at night (walking, camping/hiking) very low is good and makes the more powerful led's much more useful.

50% is where much of the usefulness is and 100% is very useful where called for.

If you put strobes in no one will buy it. Every DX dropin/light has strobe and you can't get away from that option there.

Again, to me having a very low mode is valuable. I have a XP-G that has a low of 100 lumens or so...that's not very low and limits the usefulness of that light for me.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

What MrGman said! All of it!

Everyone has a different take on what is preferred. I can't stand more than three modes. If I want ultra low for reading or night vision retention, I'd be using my headlamp anyway.

Hi/low 20%/100% is a great spread.

Best parts possible in making it will potentially put it into a different market of buyers...many people pass on expensive things.

Just because the drop-in is made uber-versatile doesn't mean much without the host capable of filling every role....so one still ends up with multiple lights to fulfill all needs. So keep it simple and flawless.

Oh, and I've got 18650's coming out of my ears, so that's a must for me.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

BTW, I'd like to add a Nichina High CRI model. (only 1W output),
anybody interested in?

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

I am very interested in that high CRI model.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

neoseikan said:

I designed some flashlights, and got cheers and jeers. Some people like the new UI, and some don't like it.

One day, Jeff (a fellow CPFer) told me that people like Drop-ins for 6P very much. I thought I can produce one too, because I have spent many time considering and designing lights based on XP-G LED.

I'd like to get a drop-in as good as the ones from great Markoff. So,
1- I will use brass to build the whole body, to get a good heatsink.
2- I will use the best LED I can get.
3- I will use the best Optics I can get.
4- I will use the best drivers I can get.

I hope to get some advices before the project.

A- Who will take a single level version? And who will take a 2/3 level version?
B- Who want 18650 only version? Who want the 2*CR123/2*16340/1*18650 version? (and the light will be off at 3.6V)

Tell me your thoughts and get my thanks

Click to expand...

The Malkoff design is patented, so be careful. Theres only so much you can do within the design constraints of the P60. I speculate this is why we do not yet have an updated P60 module from Surefire yet.

I have always questioned the use of Brass as a heatsinking material. Aluminum and copper are superior thermal conductive materials, although there are some brass alloys which are on par with Aluminum. My choice would be a module machined out of copper with some kind of surface treatment. The Led Zep modded M6 (1700L beasts) for example have a HUGE heatsink puck made of machined copper, that directly contacts the M6 bezel/head assembly. IMHO you are better off taking design cues from the led zep design than the Malkoff in this aspect.

Make the heatsink as thick walled and as heavy as possible. The hollowed out cavities should only be big enough to house the optics and electronics. You want it to be as massive as possible. When I took apart my M60 I was surprised how little brass material it really has, a considerable portion of the thermal path exists in the form of thermal epoxy compound... not the brass. IMHO there is some room for improvement here (in theory). Material changes in the heat conduction path should be avoided, as they increase thermal resistance.

My criteria:
-L/M/H, 10/100/200 Lumens OTF. Don't bother with a Low-low mode for night vision. Unless you can design something better than a red tint SF-A2, which would be difficult within the overall design constraints of the project.

-Low modes achieved with high frequency PWM. My understanding is that PWM is more efficient than other low current circuit designs.

-Beam pattern like the M60. Most of the XPG modules are too floody for my tastes. Something that replaces the M60 beam would be killer.

-High CRI would be nice. There are plenty of warm tints but none are high CRI.

-A Vin range from 3-9V would be ideal for me. Regulated efficient output from either one or two cells would be ideal, as opposed to dropping out of regulation with one cell. If you could get regulated ~3.6V / 1.2A to the LED from 2xAA that would be something special for the NiMH crowd. IMHO these CPF'ers have been wanting this for quite some time. Solarforce has 2xAA capable modules but AFIAK they are not regulated with Vin that low, and they have other design flaws (PWM flicker...etc....).

I think if you can meet these design constraints you will have a very unique design and stand out from the crowd.

Good Luck!! Feel free to PM me if you wanted to discuss any of these topics further.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

neoseikan said:

I'd like to get a drop-in as good as the ones from great Markoff. So,
1- I will use brass to build the whole body, to get a good heatsink.
2- I will use the best LED I can get.
3- I will use the best Optics I can get.
4- I will use the best drivers I can get.

A- Who will take a single level version? And who will take a 2/3 level version?
B- Who want 18650 only version? Who want the 2*CR123/2*16340/1*18650 version? (and the light will be off at 3.6V)

Click to expand...

neoseikan said:

BTW, I'd like to add a Nichina High CRI model. (only 1W output),
anybody interested in?

Click to expand...

so... I'm adding my wish list...
5- U will offer warm XP-G and Nichia High CRI Led options.
6- U will offer both single output and 3 level output version (with memory).
7- U will drive the LED to their maximum potential (XP-G 1.5A?).
8- U will offer 4.2V and 8.4V version.
9- U will include copper strip and removable outer spring contact.
10- U will NOT use PWM
11- U will make sure the module does only 1 job, to produce light, and not making extra whining music.
12- U will keep the price affordable.

:devil:

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

18650s
driven @ 1.5a
3-modes: 20/50/100

In my experience, the xpg is floody, but seems to gain some throwiness thanks to its sheer brightness. To maximize this effect, I suggest a smooth reflector (especially since the beam is not ringy, and thus OP doesn't offer much benefit anyway).

Best,
Skunknuts

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

Thanks guys.
If possible, I will use Copper instead of Brass.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

Single Level - 1x18650

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

Im with the gman on this one .I think he said it perfect

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

You are attempting to enter a very competitive market with lots of products that span the price range, LED type, outputs, and functionality.

My impression of your products to date is that your strengths are in top-notch drivers, precision machining, and innovative mechanical design.

I would focus on those strengths.

I can think of two areas in which you can improve existing P60 drop-ins.

First, a weakness of buck driven P60 drop-ins IMO is that the wide voltage range driver versions can't run in full regulation when using 1xLi-ion. They are great in the other direction -- no problems with 2x123A, 2xLi-ion, 3xLi-ion,....

If you can produce a very efficient driver (say 90%) that can truly run in full regulation from 1xLi-ion up to 4xLi-ion, I think that would be a big win right there.

For an XP-G driven at ~1000mA, that could mean a voltage range of about 3.4V to 17V. Below 3.4V, the driver falls out of regulation, but 1xLi-ion is mostly drained by then anyway. The challenge is that you face designing a driver with a voltage overhead of perhaps only a couple tenths of a volt.

If you go with the XP-G's max drive current of ~1500mA, this will be really challenging (but high risk, high reward). Now Vf could be about 3.4V and you'd probably want to have the min voltage for regulation to be no greater than 3.6V.

A balance between drive current, Vf, and Vreg will probably be needed to optimize output vs running in regulation on 1xLi-ion. If this is a custom drop-in, you can also hand-sort your XP-Gs for lowest Vf.

The second area is in designing a tight fit to the host to maximize heat transfer from the drop-in to the host and eventually out into the free air (or the hand). Here, you can leverage your capabilities in tight machining tolerances and clever mechanical engineering design. I can envision an expandable P60 drop-in body. This will allow you to machine to say a moderate tolerance of a couple of mils, and then take up the remaining gap with the expandable design. In a crude way, folks who wrap their P60 heat sinks with copper tape are manually creating an expandable heat sink. The goal is to create an adjustable version that is built into the heat sink design. I have some ideas on this.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

Justin Case said:

...................

The second area is in designing a tight fit to the host to maximize heat transfer from the drop-in to the host and eventually out into the free air (or the hand). Here, you can leverage your capabilities in tight machining tolerances and clever mechanical engineering design. I can envision an expandable P60 drop-in body. This will allow you to machine to say a moderate tolerance of a couple of mils, and then take up the remaining gap with the expandable design. In a crude way, folks who wrap their P60 heat sinks with copper tape are manually creating an expandable heat sink. The goal is to create an adjustable version that is built into the heat sink design. I have some ideas on this...............

Click to expand...

This sounds very interesting. If you can overcome the main weakness with P60 drop-ins, which is minimal contact with the host,
then you'd really offer something novel and which doesn't exist to date.

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

I like single mode or 2 mode (high/low).
I can live with 3 mode but prefer 2.
dont need strobe, pulse, beacon, sos or signal.
for my uses, they server as nothing more than extra clicks to get back to high.

and then what everyone else said.

batteries:
I generally use 16340 or 18650 (single or multiple)
but if the dropin can work on 1xCR123 primary that is a plus for emergencies.

Good heat transfer, is a important to extract those extra lumens during anything more than short bursts of light.

I really like the reflectors in some of the olights, OP in the center and Smooth on the outer half of the reflector, but OP/SMO depends on the emitter combo.

best of luck!

tgwnn

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

Go Neoseikan! One with 3 to 9volts input with 1.5A out to the XP-G would be great for me. Great suggestion with the copper instead of brass. Perhaps you can offer a single mode module and a multimode module seperately. I hope you see this through and bring a new alternative to the market! One with improvements would be even better!

+1 for a smooth reflector for the xp-g

Re: My first time to produce a Drop-in

Neo, if you will make this kind of drop-in I will be your customer :
- best optics you have for a good throw and smooth beam or ...it could have an INOVA TIROS beam with many rings around the hotspot )
- one mode or 2 modes - maximum and a crazy blinding strobe -
- the ability to take 18650 cells but 2 x 3.7RCRs either, so a broad voltage of 3.7-7.4V would be nice
- an emitter with very warm tint , 3000-4000K ! Even if it's less preformant than a R2 or R5 !