1200+ OTF lumens in the pocket?

This is a mostly "for fun" thread, since I'm already bugging Milky for a Triple XP-G mod. Though I suppose it would also be kinda useful as an alternative especially considering the current availability of said mods(Moddoo, custom Tri/Quad XP-G builds), and obviously high price tags.

Here are the criteria:
-Must use an LED emitter(I have a list of reasons I won't get into for wanting this).
-Minimum of 1200 lumens out the front.
-Minimum runtime must be at least 15 minutes.
-Body must not be thicker than 32mm(1.26 in)
-Body must not be longer than 165mm(6.5 in)
-Head must not be larger than D36 size.
-Total cost must be less than $300(rules out any custom work).
-Must retain at least 1000 OTF lumens for at least 2 minutes.

I figure the easiest thing to do would be to drive an SST-90 at about 5-6 amps to avoid damage, loss of lumens due to heat, and keep the runtime higher. Heatsinking could be problematic, but I figure lots of AS5 and copper tape would be a cheap fix for that.

However, there are a few other parts that have me stumped. I get that I'm going to need an SST-90 direct drive and an IMR battery for the high amperage, but I feel like there's definitely something more I missed. I have this nagging feeling that just because somebody sells a drop-in that's direct driven doesn't mean that all the power of the battery just goes through it instantly. I then hear things about modifying the springs and wires to lower the resistance. It's right about there that my brain short circuits and my eyes glaze over

The emitter choice would definitely have to be an SST/R-90. I can't think of any other emitter that would make that much light, for the amount of time your looking for. The SST/R-50 might make those kind of numbers, but I think it would fall on its face very quickly.

The host size you describe is pretty small for the performance you want. I really don't think those numbers can be made (in a small host) for a sustained amount of time because of heat, but you already know this. The AS5 and copper tape will work good transferring heat from the emitter to the body, but the heat will be transferred there very quickly due to a lack of mass. My guess is the heat will build up very quickly, and output will drop very quickly. You can use your hand to pull heat away from this light, but that will only work for so long, and I don't think it will work for the amount of time your shooting for.

You can make the amount of lumens you're shooting for, but again, I don't think you will make it for the length of time you want. If there was an emitter that was VERY efficient while putting out the amount of light as an SST/R-90, this would probably be possible for the length of time your after, but as of right now, such an emitter doesn't exist.

Your right about a direct drive setup having more to it than a battery and an emitter. You would most likely need some type of resistance in a DD setup. If you were to wire an SST/R-90 directly to an AW 26500 IMR, you could easily fry it. I'm not saying you would definitely fry it, but I have read about experiences others have had on here, and some have almost fried their SST/R-90's.

You know what resistance is. For example, if you were to walk on pavement you have very little to no resistance at all, but if you try walking in ankle deep mud, you have a greater resistance and you use much more energy to travel the same distance. It's similar to that with electricity. Every contact point results in voltage drop. Electricity travels easier through a larger wire than a smaller wire (as long as they are both the same material), because larger wire has less resistance than a smaller wire. The shorter the wire the less resistance. You've probably seen the Mag tail spring wire mod. This reduces resistance because the wire has less resistance than the spring. Maybe this will help you.

How big is your pocket?
I wear fairly tight jeans. The biggest torch I carry in my pockets are twisty AA lights: Civictor V1, Nitecore EZAA, Qiark Mini AA.
OTOH WadeF have no problem carrying a Dereelight DBS in his cargo pants pocket.
For coat pockets ... :nana:

How big a fire extinguisher do you need to carry around in case the light turns on accidentally in your pocket and set your pants on fire. :devil:

EDIT
Elektrolumens built a 4*XPG 4*18650 Firesword (normally 4*MCE) as an experiment. He is willing to cut it down to 2*18650 and rewire the LEDs 2S2P.
Unfortunately ...
The head is 2.5" wide.
He is asking $350 (the regular Firesword is $400).
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=222993
That is the closest I managed to the OP's specs.

LEDninja said:

How big a fire extinguisher do you need to carry around in case the light turns on accidentally in your pockets and set your pants on fire. :devil:

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..........................:candle:

good luck

ti-force said:

The host size you describe is pretty small for the performance you want. I really don't think those numbers can be made (in a small host) for a sustained amount of time because of heat, but you already know this.

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Moddoo Triple XP-G?
Though we won't know what the true performance is like until Big C finally tests it out.

Though I suppose it wouldn't be fair to compare the two considering the SST emitter would generate more heat at the same lumens output due to less efficiency.

The AS5 and copper tape will work good transferring heat from the emitter to the body, but the heat will be transferred there very quickly due to a lack of mass. My guess is the heat will build up very quickly, and output will drop very quickly. You can use your hand to pull heat away from this light, but that will only work for so long, and I don't think it will work for the amount of time your shooting for.

Click to expand...

With my current SST-50, it takes about 3-5 minutes before the heat builds up to anything noticeable. Though perhaps my standards were set a tad high. I think 900-1000 OTF lumens for at least 30 seconds would make me happy.

You can make the amount of lumens you're shooting for, but again, I don't think you will make it for the length of time you want. If there was an emitter that was VERY efficient while putting out the amount of light as an SST/R-90, this would probably be possible for the length of time your after, but as of right now, such an emitter doesn't exist.

Click to expand...

A SINGLE emitter no, but I believe the setup in a small size module is definitely realistic...or at least it will be when the new Cree XM LEDs come out and people start making Triple XM modules.

Your right about a direct drive setup having more to it than a battery and an emitter. You would most likely need some type of resistance in a DD setup. If you were to wire an SST/R-90 directly to an AW 26500 IMR, you could easily fry it. I'm not saying you would definitely fry it, but I have read about experiences others have had on here, and some have almost fried their SST/R-90's.

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True, but I think that would only happen if I were using ridiculously fat wires. Nailbender says he can get me 5 amps with 24 gauge wire.

You know what resistance is. For example, if you were to walk on pavement you have very little to no resistance at all, but if you try walking in ankle deep mud, you have a greater resistance and you use much more energy to travel the same distance. It's similar to that with electricity. Every contact point results in voltage drop. Electricity travels easier through a larger wire than a smaller wire (as long as they are both the same material), because larger wire has less resistance than a smaller wire. The shorter the wire the less resistance. You've probably seen the Mag tail spring wire mod. This reduces resistance because the wire has less resistance than the spring. Maybe this will help you.

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Well it's been said that the McClicky switch in my 6P can handle 6 amps(Moddoo himself said it didn't falter past 7.5A), so I'm not sure it would be necessary.

I'm just a little curious to know how much OTF lumens I can get with this setup:
-Surefire 6P w/ 1x AW IMR 18650
-Nailbender SST-90 module SMO highest bin straight wired w/ 24-gauge wire.
-McClicky switch.
-UCL lens.

Noctis said:

Moddoo Triple XP-G?
Though we won't know what the true performance is like until Big C finally tests it out.

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Triple XP-G by CPF member ma_sha Lumens dropped due to heat. I'm not saying Moddoo's won't deliver, I'm just showing an example of one that someone built.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/ti-force/Spreadsheets/BigC LED/Spreadsheet39.png

Noctis said:

With my current SST-50, it takes about 3-5 minutes before the heat builds up to anything noticeable. Though perhaps my standards were set a tad high. I think 900-1000 OTF lumens for at least 30 seconds would make me happy.

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You MIGHT be able get those numbers for 30 seconds.

Noctis said:

A SINGLE emitter no, but I believe the setup in a small size module is definitely realistic...or at least it will be when the new Cree XM LEDs come out and people start making Triple XM modules.

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You may be right, but currently those emitters are not widely available yet, if they're even available at all.

Noctis said:

True, but I think that would only happen if I were using ridiculously fat wires. Nailbender says he can get me 5 amps with 24 gauge wire.

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I thought you were trying this yourself, that's the only reason I mentioned it. Just didn't want you to fry an expensive emitter.

Noctis said:

Well it's been said that the McClicky switch in my 6P can handle 6 amps(Moddoo himself said it didn't falter past 7.5A), so I'm not sure it would be necessary.

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Any resistance modifications are strictly up to you. In fact, I don't think it really matters anyway because thermal management issues will most likely keep you from reaching your goal. Maybe if you took a few ice packs out with you and kept them wrapped around the light while testing you might succeed. It wouldn't be practical, but it might work.

Noctis said:

I'm just a little curious to know how much OTF lumens I can get with this setup:
-Surefire 6P w/ 1x AW IMR 18650
-Nailbender SST-90 module SMO highest bin straight wired w/ 24-gauge wire.
-McClicky switch.
-UCL lens.

Click to expand...

It's still a drop-in style light, so heat transfer will still be an issue. Look at BigC's chart and see if anyone has built a P-60 host making 700-800 OTF, if they have, see how long it held those numbers.

If I'm not mistaken, an AW IMR 18650 is limited to around 6A anyway, so right off the bat you're limited to 6A and if you have added resistance, the battery might not deliver that much. If you don't get the heat away from the emitter though, you could have what's called thermal runaway, which could fry the emitter with an AW IMR 18650 very quickly. I'm not trying to rain on your parade here. You asked for opinions and that's all mine is. It just hasn't been done yet, or at least it hasn't been tested in BigC's sphere with impressive results anyway.

Im with yah bro-

buy it and send it to BIG C!!!!!

depending on my funds and what the #s are
I might have to clone you and have NB build me
one as well

Noctis said:

Here are the criteria:
-Must use an LED emitter(I have a list of reasons I won't get into for wanting this).
-Minimum of 1200 lumens out the front.
-Minimum runtime must be at least 15 minutes.
-Body must not be thicker than 32mm(1.26 in)
-Body must not be longer than 165mm(6.5 in)
-Head must not be larger than D36 size.
-Total cost must be less than $300(rules out any custom work).
-Must retain at least 1000 OTF lumens for at least 2 minutes.

Click to expand...

alpg88 said:

good luck

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While blunt, I have to say that alpg88 was right on the money. I mean, the criteria you set really eliminates everything. If that was part of this being a "fun thread" then I guess I get the humor but it really leaves us no where to go.

The closest you'll come to your criteria and it's still actually quite a ways off, would be the Raptor RRT-3. It meets many of your requirements and exceeds the run times, but not at the size that you stated.

ti-force said:

Triple XP-G by CPF member ma_sha Lumens dropped due to heat. I'm not saying Moddoo's won't deliver, I'm just showing an example of one that someone built.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e129/ti-force/Spreadsheets/BigC LED/Spreadsheet39.png

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Yes, but I believe Big C said that Masha underestimated the heatsink and had to redo it.
The results of the new version are as follows:

bigchelis said:

I have the Ma_Sha1 SSR-50 which did 1000 OTF lumens. I purchased it to test it and now it must go to make room for more subjects..

Asking only $150 shipped for the flashlight only.....I added a UCL lens.

FYI: This light is also IMR 26500 compatible and requires 2 of them.

Here is the thread I got it from:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/259302


Here are the OTF lumen TEST for it and the current at the tail at which those numbers were obtained.

In case you didn't see it, this light make over 1000 at turn-on and well over 800 lumens even after 5 minutes. It uses 2 (2.8A) drivers sandwitched together to give 5A plus of regulated current, not direct drive.

Click to expand...

I thought you were trying this yourself, that's the only reason I mentioned it. Just didn't want you to fry an expensive emitter.

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As I don't have any tools or experience with circuits, I can't do it myself. But Dave only brought up using 24 gauge wire after I explained what I wanted to do to him. I figure since he offered, the chances of frying the emitter wouldn't be worth mentioning at those levels, since he didn't mention it.:shrug:

It's still a drop-in style light, so heat transfer will still be an issue. Look at BigC's chart and see if anyone has built a P-60 host making 700-800 OTF, if they have, see how long it held those numbers.

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If I'm reading this right...
-Surefire Digital Lumamax L2 w/ 2xCR123 Primaries 6v.
-Reflector.
-SST-90 top bin cool white.
-2.6A at tail
-803.1 lumens at turn on.
-725.4 lumens at 30 seconds.
-701.5 lumens at 1 min.
-666.2 lumens at 3 min.

Seems pretty close to my inexperienced eye. Not sure if he used AS5 in that test. I'm also pretty sure he doesn't wrap the modules with copper tape to further increase the thermal contact.

Still, I'm usually pessimistic about things, so I'll try not to get my hopes up.:devil:

If I'm not mistaken, an AW IMR 18650 is limited to around 6A anyway, so right off the bat you're limited to 6A and if you have added resistance, the battery might not deliver that much. If you don't get the heat away from the emitter though, you could have what's called thermal runaway, which could fry the emitter with an AW IMR 18650 very quickly. I'm not trying to rain on your parade here. You asked for opinions and that's all mine is. It just hasn't been done yet, or at least it hasn't been tested in BigC's sphere with impressive results anyway.

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I can live with 6A. Raining on my parade would be preferable to spending $100 on the SST-90 module and burning it out in the same day, though again I would suspect that Dave might warn me if that were to happen(only asked for 5-6amps out of it though).

BigC does very helpful testing. But I somewhat suspect that he doesn't get much in the way of experimental testing. Mostly because I don't see a long list of lights that peak out at 1000+ lumens at turn on and drop to 400 lumens 30 seconds later.

Noctis said:

Yes, but I believe Big C said that Masha underestimated the heatsink and had to redo it.
The results of the new version are as follows:

Click to expand...

That's not the same light. That light is an SSR-50 light with a custom copper heatsink. Click here for the build thread.

Noctis said:

If I'm reading this right...
-Surefire Digital Lumamax L2 w/ 2xCR123 Primaries 6v.
-Reflector.
-SST-90 top bin cool white.
-2.6A at tail
-803.1 lumens at turn on.
-725.4 lumens at 30 seconds.
-701.5 lumens at 1 min.
-666.2 lumens at 3 min.

Seems pretty close to my inexperienced eye. Not sure if he used AS5 in that test. I'm also pretty sure he doesn't wrap the modules with copper tape to further increase the thermal contact.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's a P60 light is it? At any rate, it's still 200 OTF lumens shy of your goal. The extra heat would cause the lumens to drop faster. The only way to find out for sure is to have one built and send it to BigC for testing. Then, one of us will either stand correct or corrected, one or the other.

Noctis said:

BigC does very helpful testing. But I somewhat suspect that he doesn't get much in the way of experimental testing. Mostly because I don't see a long list of lights that peak out at 1000+ lumens at turn on and drop to 400 lumens 30 seconds later.

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BigC will test pretty much any light that's sent to him, experimental or not. Trust me, I make the spreadsheets for him and that's a lot of lights he's tested.

ti-force said:

I don't think that's a P60 light is it? At any rate, it's still 200 OTF lumens shy of your goal. The extra heat would cause the lumens to drop faster. The only way to find out for sure is to have one built and send it to BigC for testing. Then, one of us will either stand correct or corrected, one or the other.

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Well my goals aren't ironclad and I am willing to let a few of the criteria fall short(aside from the size and cost).

You know, this doesn't have to turn into a topic of who's right and who's wrong. Since the idea is: "Will I be satisfied with it?"

I've decided to go ahead and pull the trigger on this one. Mostly because I probably have an OCD for buying new "toys".

I'll be going with the SST-90 straight wired with 24 gauge wire running off one IMR 18650 with a smooth reflector.

So long as I don't fry the module, I'll be happy enough if I can get 1000 emitter lumens for 15-30 seconds.

I believe I'll be getting at least 5 amps out of it. And if I read the datasheet right, I'm pretty sure I'll get about 1500 emitter lumens.

BigC will test pretty much any light that's sent to him, experimental or not. Trust me, I make the spreadsheets for him and that's a lot of lights he's tested.

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I might send mine for him to test, assuming I can bear to go without it for 2-3 weeks :candle:

Off-topic, but I think I should also poke at him to include whether the lights he tests uses a smooth or OP reflector, or optic. Those little details might help to point out how many lumens each one eats up.

You would have to get a huge copper or brass heatsink, with an SST-90 driven at 7A or more. Then hope heat doesn't cause you to loose all those lumens.

Here is the only SST-90 I tested, it did great for being only 5A and if it had been driven at 7 or 9A I am sure more heat and more initial lumens.

Nailbender has his SST-90 Mag D size builds are 1800 OTF turn-on with NiMH C or D cells via Direct drive and about 1300~1400 OTF turn-on when powered by IMR C cells. To get what you are asking you need an SST-90 for sure, but how to keep it cool in a small package is going to be the fun part.

bigchelis said:

You would have to get a huge copper or brass heatsink, with an SST-90 driven at 7A or more. Then hope heat doesn't cause you to loose all those lumens.

Here is the only SST-90 I tested, it did great for being only 5A and if it had been driven at 7 or 9A I am sure more heat and more initial lumens.

Nailbender has his SST-90 Mag D size builds are 1800 OTF turn-on with NiMH C or D cells via Direct drive and about 1300~1400 OTF turn-on when powered by IMR C cells. To get what you are asking you need an SST-90 for sure, but how to keep it cool in a small package is going to be the fun part.

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That's interesting, but I'm a little curious about that L2 Lumamax you tested with an SST-90.

Also, do you use Arctic Silver 5 in all the lights you test? I'm also a little curious if you wrap the modules in copper tape to make sure they have the absolute tightest fit, since a number of the drop-ins only make contact with the head around the upper portion of the reflector. I don't expect little things like that to make any drastic difference, but if it buys me even 10 seconds of runtime I'll take it.

Keeping it cool in a small host is quite impossible and I have no delusions of doing such a thing(I hope ). I just want there to be enough heat transfer so that I can feel it getting hot and I can shut it off before anything gets damaged. I've asked Dave if he can fill the pill with thermal epoxy to improve heat transfer from the emitter to the pill, and I'll have to wait for his response on that.

Edit:
I've got a response from Dave and he assures me that some people are getting too jittery about the heat. While this doesn't mean that the lumens won't drop really fast from the heat, he's more or less saying that I won't fry the module/emitter unless I do something stupid with it(i.e. turning it on and leaving it on a table). He's also going to fill the pill with thermal epoxy.

So the most important part, getting heat from the emitter to the pill and to the host, should be a cinch. Now the real test is in how it will perform and how fast the heat will knock down the lumens. I personally still feel fairly optimistic as even if it dims, so long as it's brighter than my current SST-50 I'll be quite satisfied with it.

It's late here and I'm tired, so my thinking ain't so straight, but this might fit the bill http://www.king-cart.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi

Provided you are willing to comprimise on a few things bar size and price.

I agree that your satisfaction is the #1 priority here; after all, it is your money. I think you will be happy with the output of this light since you're not expecting it make that amount of light for any sustained period of time, and let's face it, during real world use, a drop in lumens from 1500 to 1200 might not even be noticed with the naked eye. If you use a top bin SST-90, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if your light made 1200 - 1300 OTF for 1 second if the emitter is delivered the full 5A. As stated though, it will drop pretty fast.

As for the optics being listed in BigC's spreadsheets, they are. It's stated when an OP reflector, tir or aspheric optic is being used. I think it's safe to assume a smooth reflector otherwise, but BigC knows for sure. It's also stated when AS5 is being used for a drop-in module, but you may have to ask about the copper strips.

Also, I really think you should send this light to BigC for testing when it's completed. You could very well have the brightest (initially) LED light that's been measured by BigC. I don't know where you live, but BigC has a fast turnaround time, so most time will be consumed during transit. I live in Georgia (2700 miles from BigC) and first class only takes two days each way from me to him, so I don't think you'd be without it for long.

Just make it a dive light and it will be easier to reach your goal.

I wanted the same thing when I first joined this forum, after a while I figured out its not gonna happen and I quickly gave up on that quest.

daimleramg said:

I wanted the same thing when I first joined this forum, after a while I figured out its not gonna happen and I quickly gave up on that quest.

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Well, I don't think we should give up, we just have to lower our expectations a little bit, and wait for the next latest, greatest and more efficient emitter, and then try again haha......, but keeping in mind what is possible and what is not.

ti-force said:

Well, I don't think we should give up, we just have to lower our expectations a little bit, and wait for the next latest, greatest and more efficient emitter, and then try again haha......, but keeping in mind what is possible and what is not.

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I agree, but what I mean that wasnt very clear was I gave up on such high expectations. If I totally gave up I wouldnt of bought any lights. This forum showcases the most up to date technology and anything beyond what is currently on this forum doesnt exist. Because if there is something better someone would of already posted it(there are so many threads from members here starting threads with links to new lights).