Cops and LED lights and color rendition

Saw my first city cop last night with an LED based torch. Previously the only things I've seen local cops cary are a mix of standard incans and HID, but this guy had a insanely bright LED torch.

Basically it was two cops pulling over some kids in a 'burgandy' Mustang in front of my house, and given they had been drinking I had about 20-minutes of pure entertainiment. Cops here are typically by the book and pretty fair, but if suspicious they'll turn over every molecule in the vehicle or the suspects looking for narcotics.

I'm not sure what the exact brand of the LED torch was, but the front bezel was huge. I also suspect it was P7 based given how bright it was. I have some cheap R2 lights I've modded, and for reference, his torch was much, much brighter. Looked similiar to this if anybody cares.

The main thing that struck me and left me very concerned was the color of his light. Since I work with a lot of different fixed lighting applications I've become used to the various bins and trade-offs of cool-white vs other colors. However, his light was the highest CCT I've seen a cop use, and was darn near that annoying high CCT purple'ish hue. I have Crees in all manner of cool-white bins along with Bridgelux, and the 5600k versions of those looked warm-white compared to that torch.

Cop walks up to one of the suspects who is now sitting on the ground - asks him if he had been drinking or smoking anything. Cops will ask this as typical procedure of course, but I doubt that torch could tell a stoned teenager's eyes from somebody with jaundice and kindey failure given the color rendition was so terrible. Or, barbituates from skittles. Grass....cement...pavement....same color.

A K-9 unit pulled up, and I had to refrain myself from making a comment about the dog having better color recognition under street lights than the uber-torch.

Which is why I brought up the description of the 'burgandy' Mustang, because it wasn't a burgandy mustang. It was candy apple red, but the uber-torch cop called it back to dispatch as 'burgandy' because that's what his light showed it as. Other cops were carrying what looked like standard issue incan based Mags. As an objective observation, it would seem they would be far better at handling crime scene details.

If I were the police chief or district attorney of this squad I'd confiscate every LED based torch and either mandate they be neutral white, or use Halogen/Incan before a judge or trial lawyer gets wise and gets a case thrown out of court. Witness testimony can often be cross examined if they're wearing contacts or not wearing contacts, so why isn't a cop carrying a torch that can't tell red from orange from brown?

If a vote were taken by our resident flashlight addicts though guess which cop they'd declare as having the better tools :ironic:

This describes exactly why I use LED for almost all of my general lighting needs, but NEVER leave my surefire A2 at home. When I need to see "true" color, out comes the A2.

i've never understood this led colour rendition thing..maybe it's cus all my led lights have a neutral tint? I find I can discern proper colours better with my leds than with my maglite..my mag makes everything appear warmer and yellower than it really is..just my take on my personal vision and experience though..

That's a touchy subject. I prefer neutral to warm tints on my work lights. Even with a proper tinted torch, sometimes it is still hard to tell what color cars are at night. Lots of factors play into it as well, ie street lamps and other available ambient lighting getting into the mix.
I have a problem with dark colors..grays, dark blu, dark red, etc.. But yes, sometimes close colors get umbrella'ed into the easiest color as in the case you mentioned. Candy Apple became maroon because it's easier to describe and everyone knows what maroon looks like.

Confiscate? That's a bit extreme, and losing any case based upon color rendition is a bit of a stretch.

LED's aren't good for everything. Until recently, I switched back from a LED based light to an incan based light, due to color rendition, output hue, and reliability issues.

At my Dept, the CSI folks all use incans. Patrol is heavily swaying towards LED based lights, mainly StingerLED's.

Everyone will see color differently, and purplish LED light, or even the yucky white or "Natural white" LED light will show colors differently. Only an incan will give true color response that the eye can interpret.

dano said:

Confiscate? That's a bit extreme, and losing any case based upon color rendition is a bit of a stretch.

LED's aren't good for everything. Until recently, I switched back from a LED based light to an incan based light, due to color rendition, output hue, and reliability issues.

At my Dept, the CSI folks all use incans. Patrol is heavily swaying towards LED based lights, mainly StingerLED's.

Everyone will see color differently, and purplish LED light, or even the yucky white or "Natural white" LED light will show colors differently. Only an incan will give true color response that the eye can interpret.

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Everyone where I work still uses Stinger incan because it's issued, but I really like the color of incan over LED, even though I have a number of LEDs at home. It doesn't seem to me that the LED has as much as usable light even when output is rated as higher. This is probably just my own bias towards them however.

blasterman said:

If I were the police chief or district attorney of this squad I'd confiscate every LED based torch and either mandate they be neutral white, or use Halogen/Incan before a judge or trial lawyer gets wise and gets a case thrown out of court.

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I'm going to have to disagree slightly with this. What matters here is the CRI (Color Rendition) rather than the CCT/tint. If you look at some neutral white LEDs (i.e. Crees), they actually don't have better color rendition than the cool white LEDs. In fact, some warmer (lower CCT) LEDs have even worse color rendition than the cool LED counterparts. (And of course, some warmer LEDs DO have better CRI. It's just that CRI and tint are independent of each other)

I'd say that the reason why Incans look good is less their warmness, but rather, their 100 CRI.

If it were me, I'd rather "mandate" that they'd have to use High-CRI flashlights. (I.e. a good high-powered [higher CCT] incan, or a High CRI LED like the Nichia 083/183)

That's why I carry both. If I need color rendition, out comes the incan. If I just need to see, especially for extended periods of time, I use the C2/M60...

blasterman said:

The main thing that struck me and left me very concerned was the color of his light.

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When we were all eagerly awaiting the introduction of the Pelican 7060 LED as a revolutionary step for LE lighting tools, tint was a topic that came up. The LAPD had input on the specs for the 7060 and I recall a discussion that they specifically asked for a cooler tint since that apparently was better for shining through dark window tinting. These officers may have noticed something similar in their selection of their light.

Assuming they pulled someone solely based on matching model and color, and the car was blue when they were looking for a burgundy model, then it may matter when considering the totality of the circumstances. I doubt the shade of red would be of any consequence. Just my opinion.

I think your general point about color rendition is evidently, based on previous posts, something individual LEOs and Departments have considered. I'm not a LEO so I have no clue what equipment is best, but I'm surprised that it has evidently been a consideration. Not surprised in that I disagree, but it had never crossed my mind that this mattered to anyone but we flashoholics.

Interesting point and I hope LEO, EMS, DNR, and S&E comment on how and why really good color rendition may be more beneficial than more lumens. I know individuals have their personal preferences, but I never considered whether these differences were important in performing one's duties (e.g. search and rescue). Even if the benefit were small, which I would think likely, why not take advantage.

Of course this assumes all other factors are equal, which they seldom are. For example, I would think one possible downside in using incandescent lights would be the shorter runtime and commiserate increase in battery cost.

How important is good color rendition beyond simply satisfying personal preference? I have a cursory understanding of the differences, but how does it actually impact performing particular tasks? I don't use a flashlight for work, so for me it's just personal preference. I prefer cool and neutral tints as my need for a flashlight is usually indoors. I do go camping, but at night I simply need to see what I'm doing around camp, as I do any hiking during the day.

blasterman said:

Which is why I brought up the description of the 'burgandy' Mustang, because it wasn't a burgandy mustang. It was candy apple red, but the uber-torch cop called it back to dispatch as 'burgandy' because that's what his light showed it as. Other cops were carrying what looked like standard issue incan based Mags. As an objective observation, it would seem they would be far better at handling crime scene details.

If I were the police chief or district attorney of this squad I'd confiscate every LED based torch and either mandate they be neutral white, or use Halogen/Incan before a judge or trial lawyer gets wise and gets a case thrown out of court. Witness testimony can often be cross examined if they're wearing contacts or not wearing contacts, so why isn't a cop carrying a torch that can't tell red from orange from brown?

If a vote were taken by our resident flashlight addicts though guess which cop they'd declare as having the better tools :ironic:

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Don't instantly blame the LED for being the problem. Some people (like me) have color deficiency. I have issues distinguishing shades of red, and at night, I probably would've said the same thing as the cop did, even IF I was using an incan. Candy apple red, and burgandy pretty damn close to the same to me.

My Quark AA^2 NW and my P60L with a modded high CRI LED show better/more realistic color than my MN10, even though the MN10 is incan, and technically has 100 CRI.

~Brian

A few thoughts:

1) Color perception suffers in dim light conditions no matter the spectrum of your light source.

2) Color perception suffers under sodium or mercury vapor light sources. Probably under HID headlights or other uncommon light sources, too.

3) If only part of the scene is lit, your color perception suffers. Your eyes and brain take the whole visual field into account when perceiving colors. If most of your visual field is lit with one light source and one object is lit by another, your color perception of the one object will suffer.

4) A bright light with a poor spectrum will be a lot better in most situations than a dimmer light with a great spectrum. How often is a cop interested in seeing vs. not seeing and how often is he interested in red vs. maroon?

Yes, if you have a choice between two otherwise equivalent light sources, and one of them has a more "natural" spectrum, yes, choose the one with the better spectrum. The choice is usually not that simple.

I also think, that the light surce did not change anything.

When they have to search for a "burgundy" car, anything "dark" (blue, green, red, grey, ...) might be stopped.
.... because the person who gave the info could also have been wrong on the color, or not?



PS: lucky the more modern led production gets, the more to neutral the output can be made.
I still meed ppl who are still toting around crap "led-lights" in the size of my 18650 powered ones but which are no match for my EDC Quark AA in brightness and are soo blue ...
(and they think they get top notch lights) :thinking:

plus 1....

If i need general purpose lighting it a G2L....if i really need to see anything out comes my G2 with P90 powered with rcr's.

signal 13 said:

That's why I carry both. If I need color rendition, out comes the incan. If I just need to see, especially for extended periods of time, I use the C2/M60...

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