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Thread: AA Ragone Plot

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* Battery Guy's Avatar
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    Default AA Ragone Plot

    Greetings Everyone,

    If you are unfamiliar with Ragone Plots, you may want to read this thread.

    Here is the AA Ragone plot with the most recent data.



    I will continue to update this plot as I get more data.

    Hope you find it useful.

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy
    Last edited by Battery Guy; 07-23-2010 at 08:46 AM. Reason: Updated Ragone Plot

  2. #2

    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    VRML java applet and 3D... or maybe some JPS graphs With the prevalence of stereo options coming up, this might just be a viable option now.

    Or even... point clouds for display? Hrmmm. I wonder if there is a cheap player that works with standard stereo displays (such as the samsung/lg 120hz and nvidia glasses)

  3. #3
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by purduephotog View Post
    VRML java applet and 3D... or maybe some JPS graphs With the prevalence of stereo options coming up, this might just be a viable option now.

    Or even... point clouds for display? Hrmmm. I wonder if there is a cheap player that works with standard stereo displays (such as the samsung/lg 120hz and nvidia glasses)


    Huh??? Sorry, but I don't know wtf you just said.

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by purduephotog View Post
    Or even... point clouds for display? Hrmmm. I wonder if there is a cheap player that works with standard stereo displays (such as the samsung/lg 120hz and nvidia glasses)
    Puff puff give, man!

    But seriously, I was going to suggest some kind of interactivity with the other one. But with the new dashed lines it's much easier to follow and thus being able to turn off unneeded plots is no longer needed.
    Last edited by core; 06-05-2010 at 01:23 PM.

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Wow, that Energizer Lithium marketing line of '4x' and '8x' makes sense, if you are drawing 2 watts from each cell.

    What flashlight application draws 2 watts from each cell?
    I don't think that the Fenix TK40 on turbo does.
    6.5K diving light, 5K cool-white, 4K neutral-white, 3K warm-white, 2.7K extra warm-white

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelW View Post
    Wow, that Energizer Lithium marketing line of '4x' and '8x' makes sense, if you are drawing 2 watts from each cell.

    What flashlight application draws 2 watts from each cell?
    I don't think that the Fenix TK40 on turbo does.
    I have single AAA light that draws 2 watt from a cell, it is not that uncommon.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Yes, but is that a 10440?

    The TK45 isn't even 1.5 watts per cell on turbo
    6.5K diving light, 5K cool-white, 4K neutral-white, 3K warm-white, 2.7K extra warm-white

  8. #8
    Flashaholic* Battery Guy's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    A couple of things to note:

    1.) I tested the Duracell LSD 2000mAh "made in Japan" cells (aka Duraloops), and the performance was right smack on top of the Eneloops. Therefore, I left the Duraloops off of this plot in an attempt to try to keep things simple.

    2.) Take a look at the AW lithium-ion AA with and without the protection circuit. That circuit really kills the rate capability of that cell.

    3.) I will finish up the high rate part of the Sanyo 2500 and 2700 cells, then test the Elite 1700 NiMH and the Panasonic Evolta alkaline. After that I will probably move on to filling out the 18650 Ragone Plot.

    4.) If you have been following the previous thread, you might notice that I removed the Energizer 2450 mAh NiMH cell from the plot. The reason is that this data was collected about six months ago and I did not use the same charging protocol that I used on all of the other NiMH cells shown here (C/10 for 16 hours followed by a 1 hour rest before discharge).

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelW View Post
    Yes, but is that a 10440?
    Lights like the various LF2 versions and the Extreme III pull close to 2 Amp from a NiMH AAA on high. 2x1.2=2.2 Watts. With a 10440 it is, of course, about a third of the current and there are little or no efficiency losses due to boost circuit efficiency, but they still draw around 2 Watts, or better.

    EDIT: BG, looking forward to the Elite 1700 plot. Those cells may not last too many cycles under the conditions they're usually used in, but they are truly "Heavy Duty".

    Dave
    Last edited by 45/70; 06-05-2010 at 05:22 PM. Reason: sp error, again and again, sigh....

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by 45/70 View Post
    Lights like the various LF2 versions and the Extreme III pull close to 2 Amp from a NiMH AAA on high. 2x1.2=2.2 Watts.
    It surprises me that you can pull 2 amps from an AAA rechargeable cell, especially while maintaining 1.2 V. I do not recall being able to get that kind of performance out of them.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Happy View Post
    It surprises me that you can pull 2 amps from an AAA rechargeable cell, especially while maintaining 1.2 V. I do not recall being able to get that kind of performance out of them.
    Yeah eneloop AAA's are about the only cells that really hold up to the task. I tried some Sanyo 1000 AAA's, and they were OK, barely.

    A couple things about these lights. They both have excellent drivers, particularly ARC mania's Extreme III, that boost very effectively. Also, in these little tiny lights, I anyway, don't run them for very long at max output, usually for 10-15 seconds and about a minute max, as they get really hot. This helps the AAA eneloop survive. And with basically an infinitely variable output from 1-100%, I don't really need to run them at maximum output all that much.

    Dave

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    WOW !
    Thanks for all the work that went into getting and presenting this great info. I read the original thread so I could understand the graph better.
    I'm a big fan of Eneloops & Duraloops [and even Hybrids for that matter] and it's good to see how they stack up to other cell chemistries. The NiZn cells also seem to have great performance, I had never seen them. Does anyone know their self-discharge characteristics?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by LED_Thrift View Post
    WOW !
    Thanks for all the work that went into getting and presenting this great info. I read the original thread so I could understand the graph better.
    I am really glad that you find value in it. I find that a properly constructed Ragone plot is a fantastic tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by LED_Thrift View Post
    I'm a big fan of Eneloops & Duraloops [and even Hybrids for that matter] and it's good to see how they stack up to other cell chemistries. The NiZn cells also seem to have great performance, I had never seen them. Does anyone know their self-discharge characteristics?
    The self-discharge rate of the PowerGenix AA NiZn cells is 8% per month according to the packaging, which is faster than the LSD NiMH cell like the Eneloop, but better than standard NiMH cells.

    I was extremely impressed with the PowerGenix NiZn cells with respect to performance. They have the highest power capability of any other AA I have tested, and I am currently working on a few flashlight mods to take advantage of the higher power an higher voltage of these cells.

    I just hope that PowerGenix stays in business. I have my doubts, because the advantage of these cells is only at very high power demand. Very few applications require this kind of power, and it is very difficult for a battery company to survive if they cannot show superiority or parity over a wide range of applications.

    My recommendation is that if you like the PowerGenix cells, buy them now and store them in your refrigerator. I am betting that they will not be available in a year or two.

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy
    Last edited by Battery Guy; 06-12-2010 at 02:18 PM.

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    8% per month is not bad for most of my applications. I guess the lights in the glovebox will still get Eneloops, but I'll have to get some NiZn for my Eagletacs and camera. Do any of the active CPF dealers sell them yet? I did not see them on the BatteryJunction site yet.

    I sure hope they can stay afloat until their product finds the popularity it deserves.

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by LED_Thrift View Post
    8% per month is not bad for most of my applications. I guess the lights in the glovebox will still get Eneloops, but I'll have to get some NiZn for my Eagletacs and camera.
    For high temperature applications, such as those in your car, I strongly recommend a flashlight solution that utilizes the Energizer e2 lithium AA cells. The high temperatures that most cars experience will rapidly kill standard alkaline cells and most NiMH cells (although LSD NiMH cells appear to do better at high temperatures).

    As far as I am concerned, my vehicle flashlight there for the rare situation where I need a flashlight, and I need it to work. Therefore, all of my vehicle flashlights are setup to use a lithium AA battery solution.

    In the US, the only option is Energizer, but apparently Philips and Duracell offer lithium AA products on the Continent.

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy


    Quote Originally Posted by LED_Thrift View Post
    Do any of the active CPF dealers sell them yet? I did not see them on the BatteryJunction site yet.

    I sure hope they can stay afloat until their product finds the popularity it deserves.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by LED_Thrift View Post
    8% per month is not bad for most of my applications. I guess the lights in the glovebox will still get Eneloops, but I'll have to get some NiZn for my Eagletacs and camera.
    For in the car flashlights, I recommend using lithium AA batteries. The assumption is that a vehicle flashlight will be exposed to large temperature extremes, and still need to operate in case of an emergency. Besides the Energizer e2 Lithium (Ultimate and Advanced varieties) I am not aware of any other battery chemistry (Eneloops included) that can meet this requirement.

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    to Battery Guy --


    Thank You for your time and effort in bringing us this Very Useful information.




    (kewl graph !)

  18. #18
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Duracell Ultra Lithium test results added to the Ragone plot in the the original post.

    All I can say is WOW! Although it appears that the total energy is a bit lower than the Energizer lithiums, the Duracell lithiums are the clear winner when it comes to high power draw.

    Very impressive results for a primary battery. At a 3W discharge they lasted 1 hour! Although, even at a 2W continuous discharge, the cell was too hot to touch, so I would be cautious about using these for high power, continuous drain applications.

    Special thanks to *Dusty*, who was willing to send these to me from the UK since they cannot be purchased in North America.

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Battery Guy View Post
    All I can say is WOW! Although it appears that the total energy is a bit lower than the Energizer lithiums, the Duracell lithiums are the clear winner when it comes to high power draw.
    Yes, they do seem to clearly have a bit more "oomph". I can't say that it appears to be a really "wowie zowie" difference though. Just curious, what are the dates on the Duracell's vs. the Energizer's?

    Also, unrelated to lithium performance, but I'm curious as to how the Elite 1700's will fare in this test. Do you think you will be able to test them anytime soon?

    Nice job, BG.

    Dave

  20. #20
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by 45/70 View Post
    Yes, they do seem to clearly have a bit more "oomph". I can't say that it appears to be a really "wowie zowie" difference though. Just curious, what are the dates on the Duracell's vs. the Energizer's?
    Pretty "wowie zowie" for a primary battery. Best I have seen so far. Although, it looks like Duracell gets the extra power by sacrificing total energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by 45/70 View Post
    Also, unrelated to lithium performance, but I'm curious as to how the Elite 1700's will fare in this test. Do you think you will be able to test them anytime soon?
    I know! That Elite 1700 cell was looking at me today saying "test me, test me!". The problem is that most of my test systems are busy doing "real" work (the kind that pays the bills). I was able to squeeze the Duracell lithiums in because they are quick.

    I will make a serious effort to get the Elites on test this week.

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Yeah, OK. It looks like they may have close to a Watt advantage, at high rate. I was just wondering if their was a difference in age, and that might have had anything to do with it.

    Looking forward to the Elite 1700 results. They are obvoiusly not capacity Kings, by any means, but I've always been impressed with their current ability. Using them hard however, does have an impact on their cycle life.

    Dave

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    The only time that I, in my absolutely limited knowledge of all things digital and technical, will be able to claim I was a key part in a battery test.

    Unless you can test batteries by licking them.........

    Good stuff Battery Guy, everyone appreciates your efforts!
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by 45/70 View Post
    Looking forward to the Elite 1700 results. They are obvoiusly not capacity Kings, by any means, but I've always been impressed with their current ability. Using them hard however, does have an impact on their cycle life.
    The Elite 1700 testing was started yesterday. Nothing exciting to report yet as only the .25 W and .5 W discharge tests are complete. Total energy is ~2.1 Wh. I should have results up through 8 W complete and posted by Monday.

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Sounds good, BG. The most common use that I have for the Elite 1700's is about 28-32 Watts for 6 in series (fully tricked ROP).

    Dave

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by 45/70 View Post
    Sounds good, BG. The most common use that I have for the Elite 1700's is about 28-32 Watts for 6 in series (fully tricked ROP).

    Dave
    That's only ~5 Watts per cell. If these live up to their reputation, that should be nothing. In fact, Eneloops should do pretty well at that drain.

    Cheers,
    Battery Guy
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Battery Guy View Post
    That's only ~5 Watts per cell. If these live up to their reputation, that should be nothing. In fact, Eneloops should do pretty well at that drain.
    Yes, they do OK. The advantage of the Elite 1700's though, while the 3854H is definitely not the whitest incan bulb around to start with, it is much whiter (as well as brighter) with them, than with the eneloop's due to the higher voltage maintained. As I know you are familiar with hotwires, it's all about voltage, not current.

    Dave

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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Quote Originally Posted by 45/70 View Post
    Yes, they do OK. The advantage of the Elite 1700's though, while the 3854H is definitely not the whitest incan bulb around to start with, it is much whiter (as well as brighter) with them, than with the eneloop's due to the higher voltage maintained. As I know you are familiar with hotwires, it's all about voltage, not current.

    Dave
    Being new to the whole flashlight mod/hotwire hobby, I am slowly beginning to realize that it IS all about voltage (voltage under load, to be specific).

    That, and that the difference between a yellow light, a brilliant white light, and an instaflash can all be in the series resistance within the flashlight.

    I find the hotwire mod hobby to be quite fun and challenging. There are many design constraints for the power source (i.e. battery): volume and form factor of the battery, voltage, energy and power... And then, there is a rather limited selection of bulbs and reflectors.... And then that limited selection is even more limited because some companies discontinue certain bulbs.... And then that limited selection is even more limited because some bulbs are only available from CPF members.... And then, there is the whole instaflash problem, that can make an otherwise excellent hotwire design unusable without some kind of soft-start solution....And then you find that the perfect battery for your hotwire mod is completely unreliable and leaks all over the inside of your flashlight....And then....
    Friends don't let friends use alkaline batteries.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Data for the Elite 1700 cells has been added up to 10W discharge.

    And they definitely live up to their reputation for a high drain cell. Testing will continue up to 16W. I am hoping they will surpass the PowerGenix and that we will have a new King of Power for the AA. Stay tuned!

    Cheers,
    Battery
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Looks like the Elite is starting to head south though. I would have thought it would do better than that.

    I just realized that there isn't anyway to determine voltage under load on the plot. As we were discussing, that's the real advantage to the Elite's in some applications.

    Nice job, BG.

    Dave

  30. #30
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    Default Re: AA Ragone Plot

    Thanks for these fantastic wealth of information. Takes a while to get used to reading the chart, but then it is just simply amazing.

    Great work

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